Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby Bao on Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:08 am

Windwalker wrote:Edited based on what you've outlined. My point was that a lot of things we did, and I do if posted in clip would be either questioned or looked at in the same light as Adams work which he and other teachers all demonstrate similar things, appear to be working with the same principles..


Are they similar? I don't think so. There are different reasons to practice things that might look similar.

If we leave out the question of what kind of skill that is genuine or not, the sole logic of the HME woman clip boils down to what level of skill that is possible to achieve on a short time basis. If you see younger people who have studied IMA only a few years, maybe as long as ten, fifteen, it's just not possible that they would have achieved the same level as what an old master have reached after 40-50 years. Regardless of what kind of high skill we believe in or not, no kind of high skill is easily achieved. So comparing young average practitioners with an older respected teacher is just wrong regardless what kind of skill we discuss.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby windwalker on Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:34 am

Bao wrote:
Windwalker wrote:Edited based on what you've outlined. My point was that a lot of things we did, and I do if posted in clip would be either questioned or looked at in the same light as Adams work which he and other teachers all demonstrate similar things, appear to be working with the same principles..


Are they similar? I don't think so. There are different reasons to practice things that might look similar.

If we leave out the question of what kind of skill that is genuine or not, the sole logic of the HME woman clip boils down to what level of skill that is possible to achieve on a short time basis. If you see younger people who have studied IMA only a few years, maybe as long as ten, fifteen, it's just not possible that they would have achieved the same level as what an old master have reached after 40-50 years. Regardless of what kind of high skill we believe in or not, no kind of high skill is easily achieved. So comparing young average practitioners with an older respected teacher is just wrong regardless what kind of skill we discuss.


Other students of my teacher in China, also noted some of Adams, work.
They like me noted the similarities.


Windwalker wrote:
Edited based on what you've outlined. My point was that a lot of things we did, and I do if posted in clip would be either questioned or looked at in the same light as Adams work which he and other teachers all demonstrate similar things, appear to be working with the same principles..


"practitioners" "skill"

The comparison was with type of skill not level of practitioner
Thought that would be obvious. Apparently not.

Your concern was noted.
To remove any confusion the post was changed.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby Bao on Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:14 am

WW, thank you for correcting me about that the type of skill, as well as practicing a skill, is different from "skill level".

Yes, I do agree with this and I might have misunderstood what you wanted to say. If that is the case, then it's my mistake.

However, and IMHO, practicing certain types of skills don't make sense until a person has practiced some while and built a general foundation. I can't really see any point for any of the people in the HME video even to play with things that you have shown me your own and other older teachers do.

I personally believe in a progress through levels. Building one type skill, one at a time, gradually through progress. If someone can't show you basic skills, then there is no point in expecting higher skills. Let's see how any of these two persons can deal with hard, external force against a resisting opponent even on a basic level, with someone from outside of their school. Then we might have something to discuss.
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby windwalker on Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:49 am

Michael Babin wrote:
There are a lot of reasons to practise any of the good methods of push-hands if you do taiji; but I'm not a fan of filming the results to post a clip like this as if it was something remarkable.



The clip was brought here for viewing by a member "here"
The Channel that post the clips "Discover Taiji" is Adam Minzer's channel



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-07MVMEqdMQ&t=1s

Kristin Nieger Push Hands - Heaven Man Earth Taiji
5,371 views Jul 24, 2021

likes 305. dislike 15

comments


Seems the tree has produced another good fruit...

absolutely delighted to see a vid of a woman with skill. Would love to see more of these vids. My GF will love it.

Amazing, I've been wanting to see a good woman with a base. I'd love to see more from her


ect.

most of the comments seem positive, supportive
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby Michael Babin on Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:56 am

Hi Windwalker

I don't have a problem with push-hands of this type as a training tool. I don't like that it is portrayed as being something extraordinary when all the limitations inherent to this kind of demo are not spelled out for those watching who might think it better than it is. Push-hands was/is part of a taiji package of training methods... it shouldn't become a demonstration art to boost workshop attendance or be viewed as a way to develop superhuman skills.

For the record, from what I have seen of him on youtube, I think Adam Mizner has real Yang-style push-hands skills but I'm definitely not a fan of how he presents his material. Then again he's famous and has a lot of students and I don't.
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby Rhen on Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:07 am

Put her in a ring or push hands competition and video it. It def won't be the same.
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby windwalker on Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:59 am

@ Michael Babin,

Don’t know what it shouldn’t be, or should be.
He has his practice, and is running a business.
I would imagine the videos on his channel are used to show or illustrate the methods of his practice.
Personally, I view push hands or any other types of similar practices much like pad work in other arts.
Not a fan of push hands used to imply skill sets outside of the practice, other then as a tool to illustrate, or facilitate the different types of skill sets developed in taiji practice


Historically it wasn’t presented in this medium.
With the exception of practitioners trying to gauge, understand the skill level someone else without engaging in combat.


Rhen wrote:Put her in a ring or push hands competition and video it. It def won't be the same.


To date there are no clearly defined CMA practitioners that one can show in competitive events doing well.

A long while back some of the local teachers of CMA in the Bay Area tried to host events dedicated to showing Chinese martial arts in use. The problem they ran into was how to ensure that those claiming to use a Chinese Martial Arts actually practice them. For the most part trying to address a problem where cma stylist movements did not reflect actual usage in competitions.

It never really worked out.

Not a fan of push hands

Have judged push hands events , helping some Friends I know who hosted tournaments.

Another attempt at having practitioners demonstrating skill sets and usage related to a style.
A common theme, those who practice Taiji often losing to those who understood winning was the goal.

Yes, put her into a competitive event her timing and reactions may not be quite the same depending on disparities of skill level and experience.

Doesn’t seem to be the point of her practice.

Just as anyone stepping into a ring, without having practiced for it
is probably making a bad mistake, maybe not understanding the point of their practice.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:35 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby everything on Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:59 am

+1 to everything ww said. sure ph is limited, sure she (and nobody here) can win ufc. judo and wrestling are kinda, sorta interesting for what they are. ph not using similar "external" is interesting (or should be on an "internal" - supposedly - forum). it certainly would be nice if the partner was, say, an ex-USA D1 wrestler. or heck even if the partner were somebody from here.
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:48 am

Not only are many of the comments and opinions typically expressed on threads like this quite entertaining, but invariably, any videos related to certain individuals like Adam Mizner, Bruce Frantzis, Jake Mace, etc, are always guaranteed to generate negative reviews from the legions of viewers who dislike these teachers for various reasons. In some cases, the negative criticism is totally justified, but in other instances not so much. Fame and wealth can definitely be an asset, but can also be the source of unwanted negative attention as well. :-\

I have never received instruction from any of these teachers, so whatever they teach and however they or their students demonstrate same has zero affect on my daily training regimen. As such, I am quite content to simply continue practicing my preferred arts, while allowing others to do likewise as they deem best for themselves. In any case, none of these teachers care what we think so long as the cash cow remains healthy and their rice bowl is full. :P
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:01 pm

The guy in the second clip has some skill because I have seen it in other clips and was surprised to see he was a student of Adam
It will be interesting to see where he goes from here
The wrestler he is playing with here doesn’t seem too skilful or in good condition
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:31 pm

windwalker wrote:Personally, I view push hands or any other types of similar practices much like pad work in other arts.
Not a fan of push hands used to imply skill sets outside of the practice, other then as a tool to illustrate, or facilitate the different types of skill sets developed in taiji practice ...

Yes, put her into a competitive event her timing and reactions may not be quite the same depending on disparities of skill level and experience.

Doesn’t seem to be the point of her practice.

Just as anyone stepping into a ring, without having practiced for it
is probably making a bad mistake, maybe not understanding the point of their practice.

Pad work's point of practice is to develop "skill sets" to use against an opponent in a fight (e.g., ring, street). What do you believe the point of practicing taiji push hands is?

Excerpts from "Timing, Placement and Power:"

Sifu Adam Mizner on December 30, 2015 wrote:
TIMING

In tai chi chuan this ‘correct time’ is when the opponent has “fallen to emptiness”, he is off balance and frozen or double heavy. This is the right time to attack and finish the confrontation. Many attacks delivered with the wrong timing are not as effective as one that is delivered on time, whether it be delivered fast or slow.

PLACEMENT

The skill that is most often overlooked in modern martial arts training is the skill of being in the right place at the right time, not just applying the technique at the right time. This is referring to the footwork, angle of attack, distance and also the impact area. The training to develop this skill of placement is honed and refined in tai chi chuan within the arena of push hands practice. It is here within pushing hands that we can investigate and ingrain all the different body positions and their advantages and disadvantages.

Push hands allows one to train this in a safe way and to get familiar with the up close and personal fighting range of tai chi chuan, a range that is shared by very few styles, somewhere between the clinch range and the striking range. This taiji range gives us the advantage of being able to strike or throw without changing range and keeps us in a range that most opponents simply are not familiar with.

When you placement is correct you naturally exploit the weakness in your opponent’s structure while capitalizing on the strength of your own. The application of Da or Fa will leave you in a perfect structure, neither confined nor over extended and the placement and angle of the body and arms should make you as safe as possible, whilst still being able to apply your technique on the opponent. …

POWER

For practical purposes, in taiji quan the jin is cultivated through the practice of standing pole, form practice and sometimes heavy weapons. Although the jin is cultivated in such solo trainings it is in the partner practice of pushing hands and fajin that we learn to refine this power and how to apply it with timing and placement. When these three skills of timing, placement and power come together, we have the almost magical looking effortless power that tai chi chuan is famous for.

In the below video you can see a demonstration of timing, placement and power.

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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby Rhen on Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:00 pm



fake ass video. have student telegraph a punch to walk right into Mizners fist. FAKE AS FUCK. OK, I just watched 2 hours of Lei Tai fights in Youtube. Would Adam have even an ounce of courage to show up at something like that? Hell no.
Last edited by Rhen on Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby windwalker on Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:09 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Pad work's point of practice is to develop "skill sets" to use against an opponent in a fight (e.g., ring, street).
What do you believe the point of practicing taiji push hands is?




In my practice it helps in understanding what we refer to as "Zero point"
Formally referred to as "Zero moment point"


"It specifies the point with respect to which dynamic reaction force at the contact of the foot with the ground does not produce any moment in the horizontal direction, i.e. the point where the total of horizontal inertia and gravity forces equals 0 (zero)."

Used in robotics, found some of the theory resonated very well with my work

We use it to examine and understand the "contact point" How to zero out the dynamic reaction point, within ones self and with another at the point of contact.

For others the point of whats called PH in their practice might be different.

I mentioned "like pad work" ie. working with a partner helping to develop, understand or test
skill sets within a limited context focused on the aforementioned.

Practiced with the goal of usage based functionality.

Usage of skill sets developed extends beyond "fight (e.g., ring, street)"


.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:51 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby Giles on Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:10 am

charles wrote: There is a difference between not being obstructive to someone who is attempting to learn a technique versus being overly cooperative to the point that little technique is being applied. An effective technique is one that compels the partner/opponent to do something.

Yes. What we see here is fine as a training method, as work in progress for developing and gradually refining some good, fairly basic abilities. It shouldn't really be presented or understood as a demonstration of great skill, because... see further comments below

charles wrote:In the video posted by the OP, it appears that most of what is being displayed by the partner is self-inflicted/self-motivated. He isn't being compelled to respond as he is.


I would agree to some extent, but not fully. The training partner guy is giving her some reasonable input for her to practice with. It looks as if he is not so skilled/refined in the sense that he has little root, not much sense of his own centre and he clearly has excess tension that he can't release. This latter can be seen clearly in his wrists, elbows and shoulders, which almost certainly reflects similar states throughout his body. This combined with his basic build and weight gives him a classic 'jumpy body' (thanks for that term Ömer H.!) which will lead him to repeatedly react the way he does. Currently, the latent elasticity in his body has the effect of uprooting himself instead of him being able to take force down into the ground and direct it back into the other person, thereby uprooting them instead. (I know, I used to have that tendency in the past).
At the same time, the lady has a pretty good basic alignment: a torso quite close to vertical in the sense of plumb line instead of leaning back 'out of plumb' as many do. And she is nicely sunk and 'folded' in the kua area. What's also good is that she has done enough correct work so that mostly her trained response to incoming force is to sink a little (yes, 'sinking', not crouching lower) without losing her alignment and often also to turn at the hips as a second-stage response, creating a classic 'revolving door' effect for incoming force, causing the partner to fly off at a tangent when he leans into her. Her sense of timing is also reasonably good. This is all just some of the basic physics (i.e. Newton) of tai chi as realized in a reasonably trained body.
So in this sense I quite like what I see in basic terms. Moreover, with enough training and testing, constantly raising the bar in terms of input and refining one's own body mechanics, it increasingly becomes possible to do similar stuff with partners who are more determined/unforgiving and who present more of a challenge in terms of their own mass, groundedness and skill. (Up to a certain point of course). And also to apply the same basic skills a little further out, meeting/intercepting attacks outside the pushing hands envelope.

Do I think this lady, on the basis of what I see here, would (consistently) be able to do the same with a partner who is more resolute and/or more grounded/centred and/or significantly heavier and/or less 'jumpy' in his own body and/or attacks using grabs, strikes etc.? No, probably not at the moment. But potentially, if she continues to train and incrementally exposes herself to increasingly difficult input, then she will be on a good path.

charles wrote:It is not at all difficult to do much of what she is attempting to demonstrate. They are techniques that a good teacher can show you in a half hour or so that you will be able to apply effectively with a cooperative partner.


Once again, in my view both yes and no. If you don't engage in any mystification or ambiguity about the processes involved, it's true you need only half an hour to show and to make people understand what these skills involve. BUT being able to put them into practice with any consistency, even at the level shown here and with a fairly cooperative and less grounded partner, usually requires much more than half an hour. That's because the act of 'being attacked', even at the friendly level shown here and even far below this level, will mostly trigger a stiffening, bracing response throughout the body. Then it immediately becomes strength against strength, it is no longer 'tai chi' in any useful sense and it will all come back down again to who is heavier, stronger, has more momentum. Then a smaller lighter person will be helpless against the larger heavier person. Which is not the case in the video under discussion - even though, as said, the partner makes things much easier for her due to his own behaviour, lack of root and latent jumpiness of his body at the moment.
This mode of training is similar to one approach (just one!!) I use with my own students. Although it's less about making a partner fly or jump away, because we tend to be more grounded and relaxed, and more about just transforming incoming force enough so that after the first contact you are still in a good state of organization and the other person is structure-compromised, in a less good state and no longer an immediate 'threat'. (Although the occasional jumping, falling or stumbling away can still happen).

So to sum up: I think it's fine as a record of training good skills, albeit with a partner who presents as fairly 'easy meat'. Maybe the partner is also being too cooperative, besides his existing body issues. Nevertheless, as a training session for particular skills at a particular level it's fine. But no more than that.
Last edited by Giles on Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Student from Mr. Mizner showing similiar skills

Postby Steve James on Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:29 am

If she's confident enough to remain calm and someone tries to grab her, what she does could work. She doesn't have to be able to enter the UFC. Otoh, this presupposes that she's not being attacked by someone more skilled and determined. It's very hard to replicate an adrenaline dump. Otooh, it's highly unlikely that a bjj, sanda, boxer, wrestler --or even one of Mizner's students-- is going to be attacking her on the street. It's more likely to be someone untrained in everything except how to mug. That'd be the ideal training partner, as in having someone yoke her from behind. I'm not criticizing anything that she's doing. Everything works; nothing always works.
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