the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I like the video I can't make a person move like that, so I won't comment on the method. Makes me curious and happy.

What is wrong with these people? I think they must have some sort of brain disease.

The skills demonstrated take a certain amount of skill and time to develop but they rely too much [in the clip shown in any case] on the man stopping his forward momentum -- consciously or otherwise --when he makes contact with the young lady. Being shorter, Kristin also has the advantage of a lower stable center of gravity for what she does when the "attacker" fails to use his grip or his own body weight.

There are a lot of reasons to practise any of the good methods of push-hands if you do taiji; but I'm not a fan of filming the results to post a clip like this as if it was something remarkable.

Quigga wrote:I like the video I can't make a person move like that, so I won't comment on the method. Makes me curious and happy.

There is little evidence in that video that she can either. Most of what is on display is the partner's over-willingness and compliance.

A starting point to finding out if something works or not is to have a partner who isn't overly cooperative. There is a difference between not being obstructive to someone who is attempting to learn a technique versus being overly cooperative to the point that little technique is being applied. An effective technique is one that compels the partner/opponent to do something. In the video posted by the OP, it appears that most of what is being displayed by the partner is self-inflicted/self-motivated. He isn't being compelled to respond as he is.

With such a high level of cooperation and pre-emptive action, one can't really tell much about what skills the woman does or doesn't have. They are largely irrelevant to the actions of the partner.

It is not at all difficult to do much of what she is attempting to demonstrate. They are techniques that a good teacher can show you in a half hour or so that you will be able to apply effectively with a cooperative partner.

Quigga wrote:I can't make a person move like that […]

Neither can she It’s all her partner’s efforts.

[in the clip shown in any case] on the man stopping his forward momentum -- consciously or otherwise --when he makes contact with the young lady.

An effective technique is one that compels the partner/opponent to do something. In the video posted by the OP, it appears that most of what is being displayed by the partner is self-inflicted/self-motivated.

2 post outlining similar concerns.

A different view point.


Yes ii does take skills, the question might framed as what kind, what are they based on, is it something that their practiced is noted for and based on ?

Is not self inflected, self motivated for what ever reason the same as being inflicted upon ?

In other words what is that's compelling the other person to act so regardless of method.

might be interesting to consider the 4 ounces often talked, about rarely demonstrated in use.

Most posting concerning Adam Minzers work are negative, is it surprise that any student showing the same skills would also be regarded in a similar vein.



Our work in Beijing looks very similar to what Minzer, and his students show.

edited

It is all about how they train
From the way they do the 5 exercises to how they are taught to push
They are trained to react in this way

Interesting discussion...

@WW, I don't see the point comparing pretty average practitioners with your teacher. Seems almost a bit disrespectful. Don't you regard him much higher than that? I know you do.

charles wrote:With such a high level of cooperation and pre-emptive action, one can't really tell much about what skills the woman does or doesn't have. They are largely irrelevant to the actions of the partner.

It is not at all difficult to do much of what she is attempting to demonstrate. They are techniques that a good teacher can show you in a half hour or so that you will be able to apply effectively with a cooperative partner.

Fair comment. But I think that the whole clip is a bit unfair to the woman, Kristin. I might not be as negative and I do think that she shows more than having been instructed for half of an hour. I often speak about "mirroring", "following" and "adapting". And then, there is "filling in". I do think that she shows good timing, she follows him in a good way, with a versatile attitude and without hesitation. Yes, I can see some good qualities there. But to "fill in", in a productive manner that you can build some skills upon, you really need a neutral partner, a partner who is as neutral as possible, not overly resisting, not overly cooperative. I do see something in her, she could become a good player in a different school.

Bao wrote:Interesting discussion...

@WW, I don't see the point comparing pretty average practitioners with your teacher. Seems almost a bit disrespectful. Don't you regard him much higher than that? I know you do.

Edited based on what you've outlined. My point was that a lot of things we did, and I do if posted in clip would be either questioned or looked at in the same light as Adams work which he and other teachers all demonstrate similar things, appear to be working with the same principles..

charles wrote:With such a high level of cooperation and pre-emptive action, one can't really tell much about what skills the woman does or doesn't have. They are largely irrelevant to the actions of the partner.

It is not at all difficult to do much of what she is attempting to demonstrate. They are techniques that a good teacher can show you in a half hour or so that you will be able to apply effectively with a cooperative partner.

Fair comment. But I think that the whole clip is a bit unfair to the woman, Kristin. I might not be as negative and I do think that she shows more than having been instructed for half of an hour. I often speak about "mirroring", "following" and "adapting". And then, there is "filling in". I do think that she shows good timing, she follows him in a good way, with a versatile attitude and without hesitation.

Yes, I can see some good qualities there. But to "fill in", in a productive manner that you can build some skills upon, you really need a neutral partner, a partner who is as neutral as possible, not overly resisting, not overly cooperative. I do see something in her, she could become a good player in a different school.

If the idea is to use what is called the yin/yang point by some or the transition point the idea of resistance can't enter into it.
Any resistance felt, by either party an indication of a number of things not quite correct, most likely incorrect timing, and movement.

The whole point of the training....to gain an understanding of this "point"

Very much dependent on skill level, with no point of working with somebody not understanding what's being worked on.
It could be regarded as a type of "pad" work

Some people refer to it as "feeding"

windwalker wrote:Is not self inflected, self motivated for what ever reason the same as being inflicted upon ?

In other words what is that's compelling the other person to act so regardless of method.

Generally, I don't think so.

If I'm sitting on/in a chair, alone, and then suddenly start bouncing up and down from the surface of the chair while the chair and the ground beneath it remain at rest, what is causing me to bounce up and down? (No, in this example, I'm not sitting on nails, there is no heat source or anything similar to cause discomfort or pain.) If I'm standing on the ground and without any external compelling force and I start jumping up and down, what - or who - is causing me to do so? I am, with no external influence.

If someone comes up behind me and starts lifting and dropping the chair, or me, then something is compelling me to bounce up and down. If someone applies and releases "forces" to/on me, if timed well to my reactions, my reactions to that stimulus can be used against me to manipulate me into doing something. That isn't what I interpret to be happening in the video. One can argue that what it is displayed in the video but is so subtle that it can't be seen. It is a possibility. If that is the case, it isn't possible to say much meaningful regarding the video since one can't see what is being done. It then becomes a question of projecting one's own experiences on what is being seen. If/when that happens it says more about the person commenting than it does about what is being commented on.

If someone across the street from me looks at me and I start jumping up and down, what is the cause of that? One could argue there is some mental phenomenon that make me want to - compels me - to jump up and down.

Our work in Beijing looks very similar to what Minzer, and his students show.

And, that's the real question: is it similar or does it just have similar looking results? Short of experiencing it first hand, one can't really know.

Bao wrote:I do think that she shows more than having been instructed for half of an hour.

I didn't mean to imply that what she learned she learned in half an hour.

My point was that many of the specific techniques she is showing are - or appear to me to be - relatively straight forward and are not difficult to learn.

charles wrote:

windwalker wrote:Is not self inflected, self motivated for what ever reason the same as being inflicted upon ?

In other words what is that's compelling the other person to act so regardless of method.

Generally, I don't think so.

If I'm sitting on/in a chair, alone, and then suddenly start bouncing up and down from the surface of the chair while the chair and the ground beneath it remain at rest, what is causing me to bounce up and down? (No, in this example, I'm not sitting on nails, there is no heat source or anything similar to cause discomfort or pain.) If I'm standing on the ground and without any external compelling force and I start jumping up and down, what - or who - is causing me to do so? I am, with no external influence.

Actually quite an interesting statement considering the many things that could cause this.
Most of them attributed to "internal" influences.



If someone comes up behind me and starts lifting and dropping the chair, or me, then something is compelling me to bounce up and down. If someone applies and releases "forces" to/on me, if timed well to my reactions, my reactions to that stimulus can be used against me to manipulate me into doing something.

That isn't what I interpret to be happening in the video. One can argue that what it is displayed in the video but is so subtle that it can't be seen.
Others including my self work with this all the time, the reactions are very similar if not the same working with what appeared to be the same principles.


It is a possibility. If that is the case, it isn't possible to say much meaningful regarding the video since one can't see what is being done.

Seem to be ignoring those who can "see" commenting on what "they" see offering an opinion that some might find interesting.

It then becomes a question of projecting one's own experiences on what is being seen. If/when that happens it says more about the person commenting than it does about what is being commented on.

Are you not projecting your experiences. Should your experience be taken as more valid than others.

If someone across the street from me looks at me and I start jumping up and down, what is the cause of that?
One could argue there is some mental phenomenon that make me want to - compels me - to jump up and down.

Our work in Beijing looks very similar to what Minzer, and his students show.

And, that's the real question: is it similar or does it just have similar looking results?
Short of experiencing it first hand, one can't really know.

Not here to validate or invalidate only to share a viewpoint backed by experience.

Ours seem to be quite different.

In closing , thought the clip represented a student able to replicate some of what their teacher teaches.




Enjoy reading your post..

windwalker wrote:Are you not projecting your experiences.

I am indeed.

Should your experience be taken as more valid than others.

That's an interesting question without a short answer. In current times, every opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. Some of those opinions are based upon one's experiences, others not.

Enjoy reading your post..

Thank you. I enjoy reading yours as well.

another student


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfY4IKpmiPY

It's almost as if these Mizner videos have been deliberately made to create as much outrage as possible so people get even more outraged and share it to others who get outraged and share it again, and the whole cycle of outrage just continues.

Welcome to social media

I'm 100% convinced that if it wasn't for the 'outrage cycle' of social media (that generates money eventually via a product you can buy), these clips wouldn't exist, because there wouldn't be any point making them.