The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

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The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby wushutiger on Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:36 am

The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao is a multi-part series that will present the history of modern Chinese Shuai Jiao, examining the commonly spread history to separate fact from fiction through the lens of evidence, history, and logic.

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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby GrahamB on Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:08 pm

Excellent work Byron.
I could be wrong.
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby Doc Stier on Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:25 pm

Nicely done! 8-)
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby Finny on Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:02 pm

Haven't yet, but looking forward to checking this out - thanks Byron!
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby GrahamB on Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:34 am

I think the jackets are a big clue as to where the real origins of Shuai Jiao lie.
I could be wrong.
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:14 pm

GrahamB wrote:I think the jackets are a big clue as to where the real origins of Shuai Jiao lie.

Of course you do. ;) :P
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby GrahamB on Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:28 pm

?
I could be wrong.
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:20 am

Ok, I give. What's the story/history on gi sleeve lengths?
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby GrahamB on Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:09 am

He's going over where it really comes from in part 2.

Part 1 seems to be about busting the myth that "Shuai Jiao" is ancient.
I could be wrong.
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:36 am

Oh, I got his argument that there's no clear linenage or tradition of shuai jiao (as a martial art) going back to the Yellow Emperor, etc. Of course, since people have been practicing some form of wrestling since that time, its a comes down to the definition of "martial art."

The jacket style is interesting. And, why do traditional Mongolian wrestlers wear sleeves but no gi?
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby Bao on Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:01 pm

Steve James wrote:Oh, I got his argument that there's no clear linenage or tradition of shuai jiao (as a martial art) going back to the Yellow Emperor, etc. Of course, since people have been practicing some form of wrestling since that time, its a comes down to the definition of "martial art."


No it's not a question about the definition of martial art. It is a question of what shuai jiao is and when this exact type of wrestling was invented or imported. It is obviously just a recent Qing dynasty thing. And there is absolutely no historical connections to other forms of wrestling that was prevalent in China any time earlier than this.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:49 pm

And there is absolutely no historical connections to other forms of wrestling that was prevalent in China any time earlier than this.


That statement is far too absolute, even if I would agree. I used "martial art" because he went into detail about his definition. Put it like this, I don't believe that one day in the Ming dynasty someone said "Hey, I'll create a martial art called shuai-jiao." It had to develop from something, or a combination of things. That's whether there's an historical record or not. So, my argument is only that at some point the practice became codified as a martial art or sport with specific rules, training, etc. I'd also argue that such a codification could only occur after many of the elements already existed.

I'm not disagreeing with you because I'm interested in when that took place. Ming dynasty is fine. I'm looking forward to more specifics. Is the origin of a martial (or its transition from folk art to martial art) dependent on when the first texts were produced --or on the oral legends? Did boxing become a martial art/sport when the Queensbury Rules were published (1860s)? Or, are there particular techniques, practices, or training methods that didn't exist before a certain date? How would we know? Are there individual names associated with these developments?

And, yeah, do the jackets offer evidence or insight into those questions?
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby Bao on Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:44 pm

Steve James wrote:I'm not disagreeing with you because I'm interested in when that took place. Ming dynasty is fine. I'm looking forward to more specifics. Is the origin of a martial (or its transition from folk art to martial art) dependent on when the first texts were produced --or on the oral legends? Did boxing become a martial art/sport when the Queensbury Rules were published (1860s)? Or, are there particular techniques, practices, or training methods that didn't exist before a certain date? How would we know?


Oh, must be auto-correction. I meant Qing dynasti Qing with a "Q". Just to make sure it gets right.

There's a big difference if there is a continuous tradition that has changed through the years, or if it's something new that was developed fast for a specific reason or was imported.

Even if the art or tradition is new, there could still have been similar types of play or wrestling in the past. One thing doesn't exclude the other. But if something lacks any kind of historical trace, we should not jump to conclusions because people were kind of fighting in a different sort of way with different rules sometimes in the past. There are plenty of old records of earlier wrestling traditions, as sports and entertainment. But they have nothing to do with modern Shuaijiao. There's a real gap between them.

So how come there's nothing recorded about something that looks like Shuaijiao with those rules and techniques, when plenty of other wrestling traditions have been recorded and are preserved. And nothing that indicates a process or change to the new art is recorded. So that the Chinese Shuaijiao would be old really makes no sense from a historical point of view.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:56 pm

So how come there's nothing recorded about something that looks like Shuaijiao with those rules and techniques,


That's why it's called research, and I can't do it. I'm not interested in the shuai jiao has been like this forever or whether it was the first martial art at all. I'm interested in what people who can do the research find out.
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Re: The Hidden History of Shuai Jiao - Part One

Postby Bhassler on Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:35 pm

Steve James wrote:The jacket style is interesting. And, why do traditional Mongolian wrestlers wear sleeves but no gi?


Traditionally, only men are allowed to wrestle in their big competitions. The story (as relayed to me by a Chinese man who lived in Mongolia for six years due to the Cultural Revolution) goes that at one point a woman disguised herself and entered the big annual competition and won. The tradition of exposing the chest supposedly originated to prevent that sort of thing from happening ever again.
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