My version of the Chen Pan-ling taiji

[cloudz]

I think it would be relatively easy to misspell Chang I-Chung as Chen Yiu-Chun - especially if one's level of Chinese were not that great and/or there were changes of pronunciation of name across dialects and/or the writer was not trained in wade giles (or any other form of romanization)...

right.. but Earl did a lot more than that, If indeed he was taught by Chang I Chung. The Chen Yiu Chun storey is not exactly steeped in credibility.

[cloudz]

There's a few other things I'd like to throw out there.

The other set of this 'style' i talked about seeing my teacher perform, to my eyes had a pretty typical bagua move in it. Not something I've seen in any other tai chi forms anywhere, ever.

I also remember distinctly someone on EF posting posture pictures of another bagua taiji set (Omar) that included an identical posture that again I havn't seen in any other taiji sets. You are on one leg with the body leaning forward, one arm extended straight out front of you, and one leg extended straight out behind you.

The same goes for way the third repeat of cloud hands is performed. The way it's performed in the second repeat of cloud hands i have seen in a Chen set.

From Chen the other parts I recognise is the part that is pretty much a version of 'bhudda attends(pounds) mortar'. A few people have mentioned a Chen sequence in the form. Could anyone help me find it in a Chen form that is online, so i can compare. As I'm not hugely familiar with the Chen forms.

I always thought that possibly some postures from CPL's shaolin backround got in there, because there are things in it I havn't seen in any Tai chi forms, Chen included.

I guess what I'm hinting at is that perhaps it is a good possibility this stuff came from the teacher under CPL that went to Japan. Stuff he developed himself from the different things CPL passed on.

That would be very interesting.

Including some bagua and or shaolin elements, possibly hsingi. I distinctly remember noticing a lot of things in this form in a different light when I began to study a little hsingi and bagua.

I just want to make clear, although similar in part, the form contains some very different things to the recognised CPL taiji form.

[Formosa Neijia]

I also remember distinctly someone on EF posting posture pictures of another bagua taiji set (Omar) that included an identical posture that again I havn't seen in any other taiji sets. You are on one leg with the body leaning forward, one arm extended straight out front of you, and one leg extended straight out behind you.

The same goes for way the third repeat of cloud hands is performed. The way it's performed in the second repeat of cloud hands i have seen in a Chen set.

I guess what I'm hinting at is that perhaps it is a good possibility this stuff came from the teacher under CPL that went to Japan. Stuff he developed himself from the different things CPL passed on.

I just want to make clear, although similar in part, the form contains some very different things to the recognised CPL taiji form.

Again, just want to be clear that Zhang Yi-zhong was WSJ's student. Not CPL's. Trying to avoid a bloodbath here.

The CPL form that I've seen through BKF has some BGZ obviously added to it. As to Chen influence in the CPL form, the final "repulse monkey" in the 99 is almost exactly the way I did it in the old Chen laojia yilu I learned here in Taiwan.

Beyond that I won't speculate. We'll never know some of this exactly and I'm content with that. Just trying to clear up some facts.

Dave C.

[cloudz]

Again, just want to be clear that Zhang Yi-zhong was WSJ's student. Not CPL's. Trying to avoid a bloodbath here.

Cool Dave, I didn't pick up on that very clearly, my fault! (I was still thinking there was a connection with both directly)

appreciate the info.

The CPL form that I've seen through BKF has some BGZ obviously added to it. As to Chen influence in the CPL form, the final "repulse monkey" in the 99 is almost exactly the way I did it in the old Chen laojia yilu I learned here in Taiwan.

Beyond that I won't speculate. We'll never know some of this exactly and I'm content with that. Just trying to clear up some facts.
Dave C.

I agree with the bold. Though from my end I don't mind doing a bit of speculating as sometimes on forums it leads to bit of information coming to light.

Thanks!

[John Kavanagh]

Hi all,

I completely bow to the chap who mentioned mis-spelling of what is now the name Zhang I zhang and it is certainly not my intention to get it confused with the very open and available Chen Yun Ching whom Dave learns from and who I hope to meet and learn from myself all going well...

I'm happy too to know that Zhang didn't teach specifically for CPL, but for WSJ- no worries there...my main point was that a name like Chen Yui Chun as Erle used to spell it or a variation of same is close enough to the WG version of Zhang I Zhang...Either way, it's a pretty strange co-incidence for those who know the forms and the names...

Also, in more recent years I have concentrated on learning as 'pure' a version of the Chen Pan Ling form as I can and his other internal arts and I find them wonderful and the community teaching and learning it a great resource...

I will also say that Erle is much maligned in many ways and has some very fine material to show and teach, has been extremely generous to me and other students and helpful...it all falls down somewhat on the origin myths that go with it all which is such a shame...But it's great to know that in Taiwan and other places as Dave shows on his superb blog- there is a repository of pre-1940's and other Kuoshu now making it way this direction...

Best wishes to all- John
But i

[Brinkman]

Chen Pan-ling had thousands of students while teaching in Taiwan, whether his son was the inheritor by default, or whether there were others that were more deserving of that status deserves consideration. There have been many other students who predate the sons of CPL and who offer various renditions of his Taiji creation, and who were perhaps better suited to carry on specific aspects of his teachings. In my opinion, the form is attractive to advanced practitioners because it encompasses rudiments of Yang, Wu, Chen and Sun Taiji. Unfortunately, the sons themselves are not particularly concerned with discerning and distinguishing the martial characteristics, or the nuances pertaining to the various stylistic influences embedded in this style. In no way however, would I diminish their important role as standard bearers of the CPL Taiji...family members are of course entitled to be “first in line” when it comes to carrying on a deceased master's legacy. In my opinion however, the style itself is in danger of extinction. The depth of application and information embedded within this excellent Taiji form may require a background in each of the classical Taiji variants to uncover.

Other than just for the sake of convenience, I would not refer to the CPL form as the “Wang Shu jin version” or the “Hung Yi-xiang, version etc, per say. Those gentlemen and others, were able to to flesh out some of the potential gungfu existing within that form, in a real show and tell fashion. Present day practitioners would have little idea of that potential without these various prototypes around for direction.

Marcus

[Formosa Neijia]

Chen Pan-ling had thousands of students while teaching in Taiwan, whether his son was the inheritor by default, or whether there were others that were more deserving of that status deserves consideration. There have been many other students who predate the sons of CPL and who offer various renditions of his Taiji creation, and who were perhaps better suited to carry on specific aspects of his teachings. In my opinion, the form is attractive to advanced practitioners because it encompasses rudiments of Yang, Wu, Chen and Sun Taiji. Unfortunately, the sons themselves are not particularly concerned with discerning and distinguishing the martial characteristics, or the nuances pertaining to the various stylistic influences embedded in this style. In no way however, would I diminish their important role as standard bearers of the CPL Taiji...family members are of course entitled to be “first in line” when it comes to carrying on a deceased master's legacy. In my opinion however, the style itself is in danger of extinction. The depth of application and information embedded within this excellent Taiji form may require a background in each of the classical Taiji variants to uncover.

Other than just for the sake of convenience, I would not refer to the CPL form as the “Wang Shu jin version” or the “Hung Yi-xiang, version etc, per say. Those gentlemen and others, were able to to flesh out some of the potential gungfu existing within that form, in a real show and tell fashion. Present day practitioners would have little idea of that potential without these various prototypes around for direction.

Marcus

Everyone brings to the table what they have. Different people have different things to contribute.

If people that can flesh out the gungfu hidden in CPL's form would like to produce books and videos on that subject, then I think that people would be interested in seeing such material. I would welcome it myself.

The CPL arts in general need to be aired out a bit. The various students and grandstudents in the tradition can and should contribute what they know. We can only benefit from that.

Dave C.

[edededed]

Looking forward to hearing more about Chen Panling's baguazhang and xingyiquan myself

[Daniel-san]

Just to clarify, Erle claims that the name of his teacher was Chang Yiu-chun, not Chen Yiu-chun. Erle has never claimed that his teacher was a student of either Chen Pan-ling or Wang Shujin. Rather, according to Erle, Chang Yiu-chun was a disciple of Yang Shao-hou, as was Chen Pan-ling. In other words, Chang Yiu-chun and Chen Pan-ling were classmates under Yang Shao-hou. This accounts for the similarity between Erle's form and the Chen Pan-ling form. The resemblance of the name Chang Yiu-chun to that of Chang I-Chung (Zhang Yizhong) is entirely coincidental.

Erle claims to have met Chang Yiu-chun after the grandmaster stowed away on board a ship from China and entered Australia as an illegal immigrant.

If we discount Erle's story about Chang Yiu-chun as fictional and don't accept the possibility that Erle created the Old Yang Lu-chan form himself, we are left with several other possibilities: (i) that Erle learnt the form from some unknown person in England, or (ii) that Erle learnt the form in Hong Kong. Erle tells how, after returning to Australia from England in either 1978 or 1979, he travelled to Hong Kong in 1980 to meet Chu King-hung's teacher, Yang Sau-chung. We could even surmise that Chu King-hung himself had a hand in formulating this supposedly pre-Yang Cheng-fu form. If this was the case, he may have taught it to Erle on condition that Erle never disclose where he learnt it from, thus requiring Erle to come up with some other explanation of it's origin.