My version of the Chen Pan-ling taiji

[Formosa Neijia]

This is my version that I did at the World Cup back in October. I did a write up for it over at my blog:
http://formosaneijia.com/2008/12/23/som ... s-with-me/

Here's the way it should be done (Chen Yun-ching):


Just thought I would share in a thread I started.

And please, no joke about silk jammies. They're now crumpled up in the back of my closet and may not see the light of day again. Haha.

Dave C.

[bruce]

thanks for showing. i had never seen you practice before.
is this your main style of tai chi?
i have observed a few bits of the chen pan ling stuff from the school i am currently learning from. i think he has a cain form that looks interesting, i could be mistaken about its origin though.

[mixjourneyman]

I liked it. The movement is very clear.

[GrahamB]

And please, no joke about silk jammies. They're now crumpled up in the back of my closet and may not see the light of day again. Haha.

Dave C.

Well Dave, you know what they say about coming out of the closet....

Thanks for the clip. I have to say your left metatarsals look to be over-tensed on some movements. Have you considered inviting me to Taiwan for a $eminar? I can fix this problem for you, for only $5,000 US. You will also need to pay all my expenses, naturally.

[Upyu]

<snip>
I thought about posting some stuff....but uhhh I think the following sums it up nicely:

I definitely think you'll get better bang for buck from your Judo training dude.
At the very least it'll give you a strong core

[Formosa Neijia]

Bruce,
Yes, this is my main style of taiji. I loved Chen style in the past but I switched over to this. There are a couple of cane sets in CPL's system.

Dave C.

[XiaoXiong]

CPL taiji is great stuff martially speaking. I really have gotten a good deal out of the relatively little bit of training I've done with it. We do the form different from this so I can't comment on the performance. Even Chen Yun Ching looks different from what I have learned. Anyone else do Hong Yi Xiang's taiji here?
J

[kenneth fish]

I learned the form from Mrs. Zhu Suyi (seen seated next to Master Chen in some of the early 99 taiji association photos). She helped him in developing the form (she was very accomplished at several versions of taiji, as well as Cotton Boxing). She first taught me exactly as Master Chen taught it, then greatly modified it (more Chen style and cotton boxing mechanical content). I did this form a lot up until about 8 years ago, when I stopped doing taiji altogether. I liked the strong Shaolin flavor of Master Chen's form, the clear mechanics and weight separation, the way the spinal mechanics were employed (shen and suo), and the cascading train of force in the thrusts. My experience with it was that it was not, however, as fluid and seamless as, say, Hao style, Ban Hou style or cotton boxing in the sequence of movements (Mrs. Zhu felt the same way - she felt there were a number of places that were "bie niu"). Still, its a good form with a lot of content that can be an introduction to more advanced methods.

Just curious - Dave, you seem to be doing the set in a very high frame - was this more comfortable for demo purposes?

[Formosa Neijia]

Ken,
Sorry, I explained that on my blog. I had a gout attack that day and could barely bend at the ankles. I thought I was going on at 8-8:30 and ended up performing at 12:30! I ran out of water at 9:00. So yeah in a way you're right -- doing it like this was more comfortable for demo purposes because it was about as low as the gout would allow me to sink. I stood there feeling my lower body tighten up more by the hour, but there was nothing I could do about it. Needless to say, I learned a lot about tourneys by participating in this one.

The remarks you made and your experience learning it from Ms. Zhu are interesting. It seems that most everyone modified the form after they got it with the possible exception of Chen's sons.

My thoughts are that the form amends itself very well to being interpreted through BGZ, XYQ, Chen style, etc. so the CPL picks up those influences in almost every instance. I originally did it more Chen-ish myself because of my studies of Du's Chen style.

Xiaoxong also asked about Hong's version. I learned that version, too. Again, most everyone that learned CPL's taiji re-interpreted it as they saw fit even though that was never CPL's wish. He wanted a very bare-bones, plain style of taijiquan that everyone could do. He didn't want BGZ, etc. added to the form because not everyone could do a houtian version with long, deep stances, etc. What he wanted for the form was for it to become the "national form" even though ZMQ's became that by default. If people wanted BGZ, they could learn his simplified BGZ style. Unfortunately, he didn't live long enough to simplify his XYQ or Shaolin. His versions of those arts still have multiple forms.

The advanced martial artists that got ahold of CPL's form and added more advanced elements to it. I think that's fine in a way. But there's also room for CPL's original form in medium frame that everyone can do.

Dave C.

[chud]

I liked it. The movement is very clear.

What Mix said. I liked it too.

[PartridgeRun]

What Upyu said.

Honestly man - what exactly is clear movement supposed to mean

The movements should exhude body-cohesiveness and a sort of restrained power - that's what it looks like when people who can actually do IMA go and do IMA.

[Andy_S]

Ken:

I knew you had ditched Park's Bagua in favor of a more extensive concentration on HsingI...what made you gave up Taiji? And what do you do now? HsingI and LF?

Also, what is your experience of Cotton Boxing, and what is its relationship to Taiji? As I am sure you know, Yang LC originally called his MA Cotton Boxing, and I wonder if that is what you are referring to - or a separate MA with the same name? We discussed this a year or two back, but inconclusively, as far as I remember.

[Andy_S]

Very nice perf that Dave...a sweet blend of the smoothness of Taiji, while also being a clear demo of the mechanics of the movement....best EF Taiji demo I have seen for a long time.

The two other chaps both looked good too. What forms were they doing?

Also, was there anything terrific at the 'World Cup?" Anything/one who really dropped your jaw?

[kenneth fish]

Dave - sorry, I hadn't been over to your site to see the blog. If you have a minute, send me an email and we can discuss how to deal with gout (and how not to). Regarding the Taiji - Mrs. Zhu felt it was important to learn the set as Master Chen intended, but also felt it was important to go further. In addition to the mechanics I mentioned, the feel of the form and the practice became far more intense and demanding (beginning with the height - we generally did our last set with thighs nearly parallel to the ground).

Andy - I learned from Master Park for a fairly short time, actively promoted him and his schools for some time as well. I had learned Gao style Bagua before, and although I think Master Park is a very skillful teacher with very good students (the two Glens, for example), the flavor of the system just didn't suit me. Master Park had also learned XIngyi as his foundation - what he learned was very similar to the system I had learned. Interestingly, he preferred the Bagua because he felt the Xingyi didn't suit him - and he said on more than one occasion that my level in XIngyi approached his level in Bagua. Given that, I decided to concentrate on the Xingyi and have gotten solid, more advanced instruction from several teachers since then. Still looking to improve even now, in my dotage.

Taiji was never something I was completely comfortable with - and I did an awful lot of it. I really liked Master Qian Zhaohong's mix of Taiji and XYLH , and also the Yang Banhou taiji I learned from another teacher. Having said that, I feel I made more progress physically really working on Xingyi, Xinyi, and Tongbei - the combination of Xingyi and Tongbei training continues to give me "break though" moments (one of my classmates under Master Qian and I recently compared notes - we both had the same moments of "enlightenment" at about the same time, with profound affects on our training).

Cotton Boxing is not taiji - it does not even resemble taiji. It is a Shaolin system which seems to have survived mainly in Hunan (where Mrs. Zhu was from) and Tianjin. It is very strenuous, places a lot of emphasis on pliability and extending through the movements, force with suppleness, and a mixture of very hard and very soft ways of moving. There are quite a few sets in the system, animal and otherwise, as well as weapons. Mrs. Zhu showed me a form using a knife similar to a Sykes style knife - in her hands it the blade spun and rotated so fast it was like the business end of a cuisineart.

[D_Glenn]

This is from an article Marnix Wells wrote on Wang Shujin:

"Finally, Wang remarks, without further explanation: "I had originally studied a Si-lian quan 'Four Connections boxing' form, whose hands and movements identical to Chen taiji." After coming to Taiwan, in 1951 Wang chanced to meet Chen Junfeng [i.e. Chen Panling] in Taizhong (where the provincial government was first based). Comparing notes, they experimented to create a 'Chen style' of taiji quan.

[n.b. Wang Shujin acknowledged to me that Chen Panling had taught him taiji quan and the 24 walking-stick; but claimed in return he had taught Xingyi (Hsing I) and Ba gua to Chen Panling. Wang appears to equate 'Chen style' from the 'Chen Village', (Henan) Chen Jiagou, with Chen Panling's own composite brand of taiji quan. Authentic Chen style taiji quan was virtually unknown in Taiwan then, and it is unlikely that Wang knew much about it."

***
Here's some clips of 'cotton boxing' Mian Quan I'd put on youtube if anyone hasn't already seen them, I posted them a while back.






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