My version of the Chen Pan-ling taiji

[Doc Stier]

The variations of style and performance seen among practitioner's of Chen Pan-Ling's TCC Set certainly isn't a developmental phenomenon unique to his style. This is apparently common to all TCC styles, as witnessed by the wide variety of stylistic performance preferences of virtually every major set still in existence today. We see folks practicing the same form set, composed of the same sequence of postures with the same form names, but stylistically performed in many different ways, right? Members of the same TCC family, such as the Yang and Chen families, trained by the same teacher, each demonstrate a uniquely personal interpretation of the same form sets based upon their own individual insights and experience from practicing the forms.

I don't consider this to be a a bad thing necessarily, providing that the core concepts, principles, and goals of the original form set remain as the pivotal foundation point from which any variations are made. It is only when departure from this foundation becomes so far removed from the energy dynamics and functional intention of the original style, that the resulting form set is no longer merely a variation of a previous one, but is now really more of a separate new style in its own right.

Doc

[kenneth fish]

[quote="D_Glenn"]This is from an article Marnix Wells wrote on Wang Shujin:
[n.b. Wang Shujin acknowledged to me that Chen Panling had taught him taiji quan and the 24 walking-stick; but claimed in return he had taught Xingyi (Hsing I) and Ba gua to Chen Panling. Wang appears to equate 'Chen style' from the 'Chen Village', (Henan) Chen Jiagou, with Chen Panling's own composite brand of taiji quan. Authentic Chen style taiji quan was virtually unknown in Taiwan then, and it is unlikely that Wang knew much about it."

I think Marnix was uncritically repeating (or perhaps misinterpreting) Wang . Master Chen was very highly skilled in Shaolin, Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji prior to the retreat to Taiwan - there is substantiating documentation regarding his standing in the martial arts society of Republican China on the Mainland. Far from teaching Master Chen, Wang Shujin was a student of Master Chen in all of these arts.

Authentic Chen family taiji was very much present in Taiwan - Pan Yong zhou, Du Yuze and other teachers in Taiwan were demonstrating in public and had their own following. Oddly, it was later on when Master Chen's taiji gained some popularity that some teachers (and the general recreational taiji public) began referring to it as Chen family taiji and confusing the issue.

The techniques shown on the video tape are indeed very much like the basic Cotton Boxing drills I am familiar with.

[D_Glenn]

This is from an article Marnix Wells wrote on Wang Shujin:
[n.b. Wang Shujin acknowledged to me that Chen Panling had taught him taiji quan and the 24 walking-stick; but claimed in return he had taught Xingyi (Hsing I) and Ba gua to Chen Panling. Wang appears to equate 'Chen style' from the 'Chen Village', (Henan) Chen Jiagou, with Chen Panling's own composite brand of taiji quan. Authentic Chen style taiji quan was virtually unknown in Taiwan then, and it is unlikely that Wang knew much about it."

I think Marnix was uncritically repeating (or perhaps misinterpreting) Wang . Master Chen was very highly skilled in Shaolin, Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji prior to the retreat to Taiwan - there is substantiating documentation regarding his standing in the martial arts society of Republican China on the Mainland. Far from teaching Master Chen, Wang Shujin was a student of Master Chen in all of these arts.

Authentic Chen family taiji was very much present in Taiwan - Pan Yong zhou, Du Yuze and other teachers in Taiwan were demonstrating in public and had their own following. Oddly, it was later on when Master Chen's taiji gained some popularity that some teachers (and the general recreational taiji public) began referring to it as Chen family taiji and confusing the issue.

The techniques shown on the video tape are indeed very much like the basic Cotton Boxing drills I am familiar with.

I mainly quoted that because this thread made me realize that the 'cane' or 'walking-stick' came from CPL taiji, I read that article before but never realized what it was, or that it was an actual cane. I didn't intend to dredge up any of the CPL history, which I think we covered in-depth on EF a while back but probably not on this version of the board.

***
"The techniques shown on the video tape are indeed very much like the basic Cotton Boxing drills I am familiar with."

That is good to hear, I found so many versions of it that were just garbage and I was starting to think this guy was 1 of a kind, he has some real gong-fu.

Would you happen to know if 'cotton boxing' uses the term 沖 'chōng ' (charging) as one of it's main attacking methods?

I believe that Dong Haichuan's bagua likely came from a lot of different existing styles that he adapted to circle walking, but he also kept intact a lot of the original arts so they can be traced back to their origins. I think 'cotton boxing' may have been one of the styles that influenced him, which is why I'm interested in it. Plus it looks like another true internal style, great suppleness and strength while moving from the dantian. It'd be a real shame if that art gets lost.

.

[kenneth fish]

I believe the "24 move short stick" actually came from Chen Panling's Shaolin systems. It is also, with little or no modification, a broadsword form.

All Chinese systems use Chong as a means of closing the gap - particularly those that like to finish close (wing chun, xingyi, southern mantis). Mianquan is no exception - its body movement is very similar to other old Shaolin arts.

[Formosa Neijia]

Very nice perf that Dave...a sweet blend of the smoothness of Taiji, while also being a clear demo of the mechanics of the movement....best EF Taiji demo I have seen for a long time.

The two other chaps both looked good too. What forms were they doing?

Also, was there anything terrific at the 'World Cup?" Anything/one who really dropped your jaw?

Andy,
Thanks for the compliment. Some of my practice sessions were much better but such is the nature of preparing for a tourney.

The other two guys had interesting taiji. The foreigner on the far left beat me in the foreigner division but he didn't even do CPL taiji. He is a student of the Yang family out of Hong Kong. His form was nothing like the others. Another lesson learned: pick a division where you stand out and look unique.

The guy to my immediate left won the overall division. I talked with him afterwards and he didn't even know that CPL had created this form of taiji. He had also added and changed a bunch of stuff -- like flaring the knees in the opening movement -- and I later realized that even if i had done the form exactly how I wanted it, i still wouldn't have won. I was going to stick to the traditional way to the end and it frankly looks pretty plain when we do that. Like i said, I learned a lot about tourneys by competing.

I only focused on my performance really. I wasn't really looking at other divisions much. I got to see Dr. Yang's taiji teacher do his Yang style. It looked much more traditional Yang than Dr. Yang's. i also saw an older delusional guy go out there in one taiji division and do sloppy shaolin basics up and down, up and down, the length of the ring. The crowd loved him because he was more interesting to watch than all the slow moving taiji even if he was terrible.

Dave C.

[Formosa Neijia]

What Upyu said.

Honestly man - what exactly is clear movement supposed to mean

The movements should exhude body-cohesiveness and a sort of restrained power - that's what it looks like when people who can actually do IMA go and do IMA.

No, we don't try to show a restrained power or "exhude" body cohesiveness (or exude anything else) in the CPL form. Taijiquan isn't about "exhuding," at lest as I learned it. Chen Yun-ching doesn't do anything like that in his version, either.

Regarding the Taiji - Mrs. Zhu felt it was important to learn the set as Master Chen intended, but also felt it was important to go further. In addition to the mechanics I mentioned, the feel of the form and the practice became far more intense and demanding (beginning with the height - we generally did our last set with thighs nearly parallel to the ground).

I learned the thigh-parallel version too. I agree with what she said. I think the bare bones, plain vanilla version that CPL intended should be taught first. There are many reasons why I feel that way. One is that it's a great way to express the taiji. Another is that it's a great way for beginners to learn because most everyone can do it, just like CPL wanted. But I think it's okay to go beyond that restrained version in training to develop other capacities if you're more interested in martial application, etc.

I think Marnix was uncritically repeating (or perhaps misinterpreting) Wang . Master Chen was very highly skilled in Shaolin, Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji prior to the retreat to Taiwan - there is substantiating documentation regarding his standing in the martial arts society of Republican China on the Mainland. Far from teaching Master Chen, Wang Shujin was a student of Master Chen in all of these arts.

Authentic Chen family taiji was very much present in Taiwan - Pan Yong zhou, Du Yuze and other teachers in Taiwan were demonstrating in public and had their own following.

Agreed on the part about CPL. His credentials were well-established in those arts prior to arriving in Taiwan.

About the Chen style though, I had heard that in the early to mid-50's, the Chen was still unknown here. Those guys hadn't apparently "gone public" with their taiji yet because they didn't think anyone was interested in learning it. The Chen guys seemed to have been out of the main guoshu loop, as it were, which is why you perhaps don't see any of them in the early taiji federation pictures. I heard that they mainly started teaching early 60's. But I could be wrong.

I believe the "24 move short stick" actually came from Chen Panling's Shaolin systems. It is also, with little or no modification, a broadsword form.

Correct again. It's from the shaolin system.

Dave C.

[Chris Fleming]

"And please, no joke about silk jammies. They're now crumpled up in the back of my closet and may not see the light of day again. Haha"

No jokes. But on a side note, what would happen if you went to a tournament and didn't wear said jammies?

[Formosa Neijia]

"And please, no joke about silk jammies. They're now crumpled up in the back of my closet and may not see the light of day again. Haha"

No jokes. But on a side note, what would happen if you went to a tournament and didn't wear said jammies?

You wouldn't be allowed to compete. The rules state you have to wear a certain kind of uniform for the forms comp. I did see some foreigners wearing non-silk, but it was still the frog-button, Chinese-style uniform.

Trust me, if you didn't wear it, you wouldn't place no matter what. But on the practical side, the silk is thin and it hangs, so you can see the body movements more clearly. I didn't understand that before I competed but now I do. And to be honest, that thing is comfortable as hell. Wear it for a while and you'll see why silk is so expensive and valued in clothing.

Dave C.

[chud]

Angry white pajamas!!!

[taiwandeutscher]

I was there in Taibei, too, saw the slim and trim Dave, but mostly concentrated on the Masters' performances, which were quite interesting. Dr. Yang, his teacher Gao Tao, good Chen Laojia Yilu, Huleijia, Yin- and Cheng Bagua, some exotic stuff, but also some fajin cooparative so-so stuff. And not to foget the French "pop group" around Thierry Alibert, shiny silks in all colours, with stuff and sabre and an older Yang Shaohou form, in Euorpe sold as Yang Luchan form.
A pitty that those performance artists looked realy bad in fixed step phs. But then, lots of European phs champs have lost without getting any points before over here in Taiwan. Fixed and moving step are a rather bullfight here, so the older western guys without any cardio were lost within the first 3 min round.

[Chris Fleming]

"And please, no joke about silk jammies. They're now crumpled up in the back of my closet and may not see the light of day again. Haha"

No jokes. But on a side note, what would happen if you went to a tournament and didn't wear said jammies?

You wouldn't be allowed to compete. The rules state you have to wear a certain kind of uniform for the forms comp. I did see some foreigners wearing non-silk, but it was still the frog-button, Chinese-style uniform.

Trust me, if you didn't wear it, you wouldn't place no matter what. But on the practical side, the silk is thin and it hangs, so you can see the body movements more clearly. I didn't understand that before I competed but now I do. And to be honest, that thing is comfortable as hell. Wear it for a while and you'll see why silk is so expensive and valued in clothing.

Dave C.

I can understand that. I'm not against wearing such things (well, I wouldn't be the first to slap on some silk), but to me it's a little funny. Considering that I'm not Asian, I find it funny to have to wear classical Asian garb (that even Asians don't wear). To me its kinda along the lines of Medieval re-enactors.

[Little Bai]

I can understand that. I'm not against wearing such things (well, I wouldn't be the first to slap on some silk), but to me it's a little funny. Considering that I'm not Asian, I find it funny to have to wear classical Asian garb (that even Asians don't wear). To me its kinda along the lines of Medieval re-enactors.

It's not that classical, actually. It's Manchu dress, and it spread in China only from the 19th century onward. The modern style became famous as the Mao-dress, although he certainly didn't invent it, but everyone in China (the PRC, that is) was wearing it until maybe two decades ago. You can still see it in the villages today, but it has more or less vanished from the bigger cities (as far as I can tell).

[cdobe]

This is from an article Marnix Wells wrote on Wang Shujin:

"Finally, Wang remarks, without further explanation: "I had originally studied a Si-lian quan 'Four Connections boxing' form, whose hands and movements identical to Chen taiji." After coming to Taiwan, in 1951 Wang chanced to meet Chen Junfeng [i.e. Chen Panling] in Taizhong (where the provincial government was first based). Comparing notes, they experimented to create a 'Chen style' of taiji quan.

[n.b. Wang Shujin acknowledged to me that Chen Panling had taught him taiji quan and the 24 walking-stick; but claimed in return he had taught Xingyi (Hsing I) and Ba gua to Chen Panling. Wang appears to equate 'Chen style' from the 'Chen Village', (Henan) Chen Jiagou, with Chen Panling's own composite brand of taiji quan. Authentic Chen style taiji quan was virtually unknown in Taiwan then, and it is unlikely that Wang knew much about it."

***
Here's some clips of 'cotton boxing' Mian Quan I'd put on youtube if anyone hasn't already seen them, I posted them a while back.






.

The shown cotton boxing techniques are similar to taiji techniques
first clip: 1:37 lou xi ao bu, 2:00 pie shen chui
second clip: yun shou

[D_Glenn]

I had read something a long time ago that 'cotton boxing' had an influence or was a possible origin for taiji, I don't remember the reference source but basically it's supposed to be where the idea of '綿 Mian and 隨 Sui' (soft and following) came from. I think the 2 look similar but I don't know enough about either art so I'd ultimately trust someone who studied both, like say Kenneth Fish.

By the way thanks for the reply Ken.

[Formosa Neijia]

I was there in Taibei, too, saw the ...French "pop group" around Thierry Alibert, shiny silks in all colours, with stuff and sabre and an older Yang Shaohou form, in Euorpe sold as Yang Luchan form.

I didn't catch this the first time. I've heard of Alibert but don't know anything about him. At the cup, I was mostly concentrating on my competition so I didn't pay much attention to what else was going on.

One of CPL's main teachers was Yang Shao-hou. What does Alibert's form look like? Does it look like the CPL form? BTW Goggle didn't show much.

Dave C.