Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:33 pm

I wasn’t referring to Dong being the gatekeeper
I was talking about him taking challenges on Yangs behalf
Chen wei ming might also get a mention
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:02 am

Steve James wrote:. Yang Jun is (afaik) currently the head of the YCF family style, but I don't think he takes challenges.


That is a common misunderstanding. Yang Jun is not the head of Yang Style. Not YCF or any other Yang style but his own.

Yang Yun is the leader of "Yang Family Tai Chi", which is a registered brand and organisation he himself created together with his father.

Neither this brand nor himself have been recognised by other Yang Tai Chi schools or lineages, or officially by China, to represent the whole style of Yang Tai Chi Chuan. And no one has recognised or accepted that what Yang Jun represents should be regarded as "The Standard".

It's a brand promoting simplified, standardised Tai Chi exercises according to their own standards. But still, it's just a brand.

Ya know, many people argue that the YCF line didn't fight as much as his uncles' styles, who did medium and small "frame." That was the knock on YCF.


YCF was taught in "The old school" and studied small and fast frames as well as practical combat methods and sparring. But he created his own "brand" and a style that suited the time and society that he himself lived in.

In that time, no student who wanted to be a close student, would let his teacher take on challenges. They would rather fight each other to get a chance to represent their teacher.
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:22 am

Steve James wrote:No idea, but I know the story from the family. And, I don't know who fights for the family now, if anyone.


My point is that five years before his death Yang Cheng Fu published a book. He mentioned about a dozen of his top students... And even mentioned those student's students.
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... hiyong-fa/

If Fu Zhongwen started training with YCF when he was 9, as is claimed, and if he was chosen to carry YCF's art and lineage, as is claimed, why was Fu not mentioned among that group of students?

I don't care what Fu says in his book. You can say whatever you want in a book. In his book YCF relayed a whole conversation he had with Yang Luchan, and YLC died ten years before YCF was born. Louis Swain translated that one too.

Watching films of Fu compared to for example Dong Yiejie, to my eye there is a vast gulf of skill between the two. They aren't even in the same league. I don't find Fu's movement to be very impressive by comparison.
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby Rhen on Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:25 am

Fu took challenges I've heard in southern china area when teaching with YCF there. Not being mentioned in particular books doesnt matter. Unlike the people who were mentioned in books, he didn't need to be, he was from Yongnian county Guang fu town (Guang Ping), he was neighbor to Yang Zhoupeng (Yang Banhou's son) and learned from him in the village as well, before going off to Shanghai. He was marriend to Yang Jianhou's great grand daughter. Fu with with his teacher YCF at the time of death and in Chinese culture this is a big deal I've heard and does qualify as lineage holder by skill, marriage, and discipleship. Just because you dont like the way someone moves doesnt mean they have the skill, many things can be said about Tung's form, like why is he leaning so far forward, Tung did many martial arts for instance they teach Hao style as well.

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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby Rhen on Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:06 am

Hey oragmi_burrito I saw your teacher now doing long form on Facebook, are things not going well for woo-woo Adam? so he does huangs tai chi short form, hermeticism, iron robe, henry sue's mantis, neigong, theravada buddhism, mahayana buddhism (did he lose faith in the lesser path?!?!), Liang dehua's fast form and he still doesn't have it. so he has to start from zero and do a poor rendention of long form now. It's not like people who have been telling short formers for decades that short form is not enough. Glad to see him starting fresh since his whole gig is hilarious and misleading. Let's talk in combined riddles of buddhism, mysticism, and Tai Chi and pretend wisdom, but it really looks stupid and arrogant. The emperor has no clothes. Nobody in that cult is brave enough to tell the teacher how dumb he looks.

Xu Xiaodong still waiting to crush his ass. Glad to see more martial art research youtubers calling out ol' woo-boy Mizner.

Da Liu, a student of ZMQ says in his book, at page 2 of 'T'ai Chi Ch'uan and I Ching', Da Liu says: "The long form of the Yang school has 108 different postures. It is like the Yangtze River, long but gently flowing. It lasts fifteen to twenty minutes when fully comprehended. The professional T'ai Chi student should learn this form. The short form, which is recommended for the average student, is much easier to learn, comprising about fifty forms and taking from seven to ten minutes to perform. It is good for the office worker and for people who wish to improve their health and can be practiced two or three times a day." (from Yang Family forum)

Fu Zhongwen stated in an interview published in Inside Kung-fu, April 1993: "Cheng Man-ch'ing is probably the most famous taijiquan teacher in America. I knew him when he came to Shanghai to study with my uncle Yang Cheng-fu. He was a very great artist. He was very interested in learning and practicing taiji tui shou (push hands), which he did quite heavily with Yang Cheng-fu and all those around him who were the most skilled...Cheng Man- ch'ing was legitimate, and now it is important for his students and other practitioners to research where 'they first drank the water.' The traditional methods of the Yang family style must be preserved..." The preceding excerpt from Fu Zhongwen's comments is most pertinent, but he went on to say that he felt that he saw differences in the way the short form and long forms were done.
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:26 am

You're absolutely right, in a discussion of the lineage of Taijiquan from Zhang San Feng to the students of one's own students, it makes perfect sense to omit the one person groomed from childhood to be your lineage successor because "he didn't need it".

It's a secret lineage... filled with secret methods...and a Taijiquan master would NEVER exaggerate their own qualifications to help keep their rice bowl filled.

As to Adam Mizner, I simply don't care what anybody has to say about the guy, positive or negative. I certainly have nothing to gain by defending him on an internet forum.

Though it does speak volumes about your own character that you would resort to such a petty response.
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby Steve James on Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:10 am

Well, I think it's unnecessary to put down anyone. In fact, that's the old reason for having challenges back in those days.

Chen Weiming never took challenges for YCF. First off, he wasn't with YCF that long. Chen had been a long time student of Sun Lutang. He switched over to YCF and helped him write his books. Chen was also a sword guy, not a forms or empty hand fighting expert, in the line of Sun Lutang from Li Jinglin. That doesn't mean Chen wasn't proficient.

Afa Yang Jun, it was the PRC that officially recognized tjq family representatives in the 80s. Yang Zhenduo was chosen and promoted by the government. Yang family members who were not in the PRC weren't. It's a story that goes back to the Nanjing Academy, nationalism, and both YCF and Wujianquan leaving for Shanghai and starting their own schools. In the 80s, the PRC promoted Chen style, and produced a number of "official" books defining the tjq schools. They chose Chen, Yang (Chenfu), Wu (Jianquan), and Sun Lutang styles. Iinm, they added a Wu/Hao book, too.

But, we all know that was a huge oversimplification, and it's easy to tell by the number of books on styles and sub styles that exist. My point here is that Dong/Tung style is as much Yang style as Wu (jianquan) style is. CMC is Yang style too. Yang Zhenduo's family art is the one officially nominated as the one coming down directly from Yang Chenfu. That is not a matter of his skill or of whether the rest of the Yang family accepts him as their head. That's completely different with the Dong/Tung family and the Wu/Ng family. I've no clue about the Chens, but I imagine there's an official representative of the family style.
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby GrahamB on Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:23 am

China has never had a free press. When considering the reason why things appear, or don't appear, in books you should have that in mind at all times.
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby Steve James on Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:42 am

GrahamB wrote:China has never had a free press. When considering the reason why things appear, or don't appear, in books you should have that in mind at all times.


That's true, but each of the "families" had their own books that they published. At one time, they were only given to students, and existed long before the "official" PRC texts that came out in the 80s. They were all in Chinese, and it wasn't until the 90s when translations were available.

Hey Graham, tjq was part of the nationalist effort before WW2, no? Most of the tjq we knew about came from people who'd opposed the communists, which was the reason so many were in HK, Taiwan, [oops, forgot Malaysia} or left the PRC [for Canada, Germany, the UK]. When the PRC opened up, and the cultural revolution was over, it wanted to retake this "pearl of Chinese culture" and make tjq its own. My Taiwanese teachers said that tjq from the PRC wasn't Chinese; it was communist. And, that wasn't limited to things like the new "competition" forms or the "Yang" 24, 48, etc.
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:08 pm

Steve James wrote:Afa Yang Jun, it was the PRC that officially recognized tjq family representatives in the 80s. Yang Zhenduo was chosen and promoted by the government. Yang family members who were not in the PRC weren't. It's a story that goes back to the Nanjing Academy


I can't find anything about that, do you have any source??? Yang Zhenduo served as Vice-President of the Shanxi Wushu Association between 1980-82. In 1982 he founded the Shanxi Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan Association and served as President. First in 1998 he founded International Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan Association, which is now re-branded as Yang Family Tai Chi. So he worked locally, and later internationally, and always without any explicit connection to, or membership in, any national organization. So I cannot really see how the PRC would have shown him that interest or how it would have happened. Sure, YZD was named one of top 100 Wushu people in 1996. But that is not the 1980's and has nothing to do with any other type of Tai Chi recognition, as naming him the head of all Yang Tai Chi.
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby Steve James on Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:14 pm

While retaining his position as chairman of the International Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan Association until his death, Yang Zhenduo retired from his regular teaching activities, his position as president of the association, and appointed his student Yang Jun, his grandson, as its new president to continue his work.

In July 2009, at the First International Tai Chi Chuan Symposium,[13] Grandmaster Yang Zhenduo announced that Master Yang Jun is the fifth lineage-holder of the Traditional Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan.


I have no idea whether the PRC recognizes the other Yang family branches. I know that Yang Zhenduo's line as being the orthodox Yang Chenfu one. That's the one that the PRC published.
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:30 pm

GrahamB wrote:China has never had a free press. When considering the reason why things appear, or don't appear, in books you should have that in mind at all times.



Fair enough, I guess its a possibility that he was omitted to prevent the government from knowing he was a student.

Why?
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby Rhen on Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:43 pm

Yang Zhenduo became head of the Chinese Yang style because his older brother Yang zhenji would not denounce his half-brother Yang Shouzhong who fled to Hong Kong. Yang Zhenjie ended up doing factory work. This was the opportunity for Yang Zhenduo to rise as the leader of Yang family in China. Yang Jun, from what I've heard from several sources is not Yang Zhenduo's grandson in blood, but is the grandson of his second wife. This did not go well with many of the senior disciples of Yang Zhenduo and that is how the information got out about bloodline. You can look at other Yang family members and they are tall and robust, Yang Jun is not. Also his form is not good and the ranking is a joke. Many think that since they have a ranking in the Yang family association is that they are good and can talk down to others of lesser rank or no rank. The ranking consists of a written test, doing long form, a weapon, and some push hands patterns (apparently Sam Masich had to teach Yang Jun the patterns (heard from 2 sources)) and getting graded on it. There is no free style pushing like a competition nor free sparring like many schools normally have with inside school comeptition for ranking.
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:25 pm

Rhen wrote:Yang Zhenduo became head of the Chinese Yang style because his older brother Yang zhenji would not denounce his half-brother Yang Shouzhong who fled to Hong Kong. Yang Zhenjie ended up doing factory work. This was the opportunity for Yang Zhenduo to rise as the leader of Yang family in China. Yang Jun, from what I've heard from several sources is not Yang Zhenduo's grandson in blood, but is the grandson of his second wife. This did not go well with many of the senior disciples of Yang Zhenduo and that is how the information got out about bloodline. You can look at other Yang family members and they are tall and robust, Yang Jun is not. Also his form is not good and the ranking is a joke. Many think that since they have a ranking in the Yang family association is that they are good and can talk down to others of lesser rank or no rank. The ranking consists of a written test, doing long form, a weapon, and some push hands patterns (apparently Sam Masich had to teach Yang Jun the patterns (heard from 2 sources)) and getting graded on it. There is no free style pushing like a competition nor free sparring like many schools normally have with inside school comeptition for ranking.


Which just begs the question, what good is lineage really, anyways?
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Re: Fu Zhongwen's 4 disciples

Postby nicklinjm on Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:49 pm

Think Oragami has hit the nail on the head there - at the end of the day "official" designations as to who is Head or Gatekeeper mean little, and have little relationship as to how skilled the person is - a point which applies equally to other styles, not just taiji.

If we are talking about the skills that made the Yang family famous (neutralise the opponent's attack and control his structure upon touch, launch away with minimal use of force), the number of people that can do that would barely fill a classroom, and none of them are surnamed Yang!
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