Willow bends tui shou drill

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Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby Rhen on Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:52 am

Last edited by Rhen on Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby GrahamB on Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:48 am

Is this you, Rhen?
I could be wrong.
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:20 am

GrahamB wrote:Is this you, Rhen?


No. This is my first teacher, the very skilled and humble Ray Hayward.

http://www.rayhayward.com/
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby nicklinjm on Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:02 pm

Looks quite similar to some of the exercises from Huang line. I guess originally this particular set of push hands drills all came down from Cheng Man-ching?
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:49 pm

On the surface yeah but yielding sideways is somewhat questionable
Saying that the way Huangs people do the 7 point push these days is quite similar
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby Bao on Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:46 am

Jus a general reflection without commenting on the actual exercise or the quality of practice.

But it seems like a lot of tai chi practice nowadays focus a lot on how to get into and out of bad situations, and very seldom on how to avoid them.
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:02 am

Sorry Bao don't quite get what you mean there
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby Bao on Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:18 am

wayne hansen wrote:Sorry Bao don't quite get what you mean there


Ok, understood.

I have seen a lot of this kind of practice lately. They either start from a compromised position or lead to a compromised position. I think I never see people practicing on maintaining and controlling distance and angle.

I see the same problem when it comes to applications practice and techniques. They usually start from a position which would mean that you must already have had a very bad sense of timing and distance in the first place to even get into that starting position. So if you already have a bad timing to start with, how on earth would you believe that you could actually pull it off in a real fight???

Adapting to movement, distance and angle, is something that starts from distance, before the initial contact. If you don't practice this, your sense of what to do and when, to a real opponent in a real situation will be completely wrong.

I have been thinking about this for some while. I find not only most techniques and applications practice very artificial and dealing with wrong premisses, though they still might deal with some important lessons to learn. But I also see the same problem in free push hands practice. Very few people show any kind of real understanding about timing, distance and angle.

I don't really care about how other people practice, but I am trying to find ways to teach some types of techniques and applications in a different way than I learned them, while still maintaining the principle and essence of the methods. I myself am not exactly sure where to draw the line between, or combine, important basic practice as in the OP together with different methods to better understand and develop a sense of timing and controlling distance and angle.

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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:20 am

. I don't really care about how other people practice, but I am trying to find ways to teach some types of techniques and applications in a different way than I learned them, while still maintaining the principle and essence of the methods. I myself am not exactly sure where to draw the line between, or combine, important basic practice as in the OP together with different methods to better understand and develop a sense of timing and controlling distance and angle.


It might help to consider the interaction starts before contact is made.

Before, during, and after

The highest level before an action is physically manifested.

For most practices they start “after” the lowest level but never seem to work up to the higher levels remaining kind of stuck. as you say drawing wrong conclusions from their practices.
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby co-lee on Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:10 am

I've met a lot of folks who do this floppy yielding. Some are hard to push in a constrained situation. Almost all lead themselves into troubled positions.

When we learned HXX-style 7 points pushing, it was very strongly emphasized that we should not lose our structural integrity. As Ben Lo would often say "relax is not collapse". And based on the videos of CMC teaching push hands where he steps in after someone successfully yields or successfully pushes saying "no, not right. too collapsed or too stiff", I suspect he would have objected to this kind of yielding that takes one directly into a troubled position.

In general, looking at my practice when I fall into one of these compromised positions, it's a failure of my skill. yielding without any return, holding stiffness and force in one part of my body that collapses me elsewhere. So, much more of a warning sign than anything I want to practice. I assume there are capable people who have practiced this way who would easily handle me. But, the ones I meet who practice this way don't seem to have the skills I'm looking for, even if they'd beat me in a competition.

As you say, Bao, this seems to focus on heading into trouble rather than using positioning, angles, and awareness to stay in an untroubled place...
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:02 pm

Bao I get u now
That is what all the stepping push hand sets do especially ta Lu and san shou
The seven point push should also take care of this
The way I see it done these days it does not
The way we do the first two pushes there is no sit back and if the hips move from the square it is considered a fault
6 the pull should lead to shoulder stroke and a forward yield to neutralise
These exercises that don’t use the hands are what I call structural exercises of which we have a few
It is up to the person doing the pushes to test the structural integrity of the recipient
I teach the pushes as a series of punches to be practiced separately with the hands used in a specific order
Only 1 and 7 done with the right hand
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby Bao on Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:29 am

windwalker wrote:For most practices they start “after” the lowest level but never seem to work up to the higher levels remaining kind of stuck. as you say drawing wrong conclusions from their practices.


Well yeah, that's certainly how most people do things. When people practice, they always want to see or figure what the opponent does before responding. But if you don't respond already to the initial movement, when the opponent starts to do something, and when you yet have no idea what he is going to do, then it's already too late. Free push hands might be the best exercise to play around and adapt to what is happening now. But people tend to bring in that "too late mind-set" even in push hands practice. They will wait for certain positions or try to understand what the opponent wants to do before actually responding and adapting. Again, then it's too late. And that is when they hard strength to compensate what is often actually a lack in timing. They respond and adapt too late.

co-lee wrote:As Ben Lo would often say "relax is not collapse". And based on the videos of CMC teaching push hands where he steps in after someone successfully yields or successfully pushes saying "no, not right. too collapsed or too stiff", I suspect he would have objected to this kind of yielding that takes one directly into a troubled position.


Interesting. I know that William Chen likes his students to work with more extreme positions. But I think that when he was younger, I think he developed a personal style that suited his very flexible body type very well. Most people don't have that degree of natural flexibility and softness.

wayne hansen wrote:I teach the pushes as a series of punches to be practiced separately with the hands used in a specific order
Only 1 and 7 done with the right hand


Makes sense. Thank you for sharing your understanding.
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Re: Willow bends tui shou drill

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:08 am

When you are in a real fight and adrenaline takes over one of the biggest problems is over reaction
So it dosent hurt to practice in a relaxed manner
They seem to balance out
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