the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

If you are seriously using this gif as a riposte against Wayne, you've succeeded in making your last shred of credibility regarding IMA disappear.

GrahamB wrote:OK Wayne, message received.

Lol that's hardly fair, may as well post videos of BJJers shrimping.

Fwiw, I liked what your teacher was doing there.

The rest of the video is pretty typical taijiquan.

oragami_itto wrote:
The rest of the video is pretty typical taijiquan.

Exactly.

I’m getting quite sexually excited
Remember that was 1978
What were you doing then
There is a film of you and your teacher doing CLF but i wouldn’t be that cruel
Now tell me what is wrong with that

oragami_itto wrote:The rest of the [original] video [with Wayne and Eric Fitzgerald] is pretty typical taijiquan.

Yes, it is. In the sense that, while nothing amazing, it's solid genuine taijiquan. Not wobbly, woo-woo, dubious, stiff, off-centre, self-deluding, embarrassing or anything else in that direction. Grounded, centred, upright, focused, relaxed. In the tuishou pattern from roughly 6.00 to 7.00 you can clearly see them using the body and not the arms to neutralize fast and focused pushes. Sure, Eric is using his body more fluently and neutralizing more fully than Wayne at that point in time (!), which makes sense since Wayne was clearly more the learner during this temporal snapshot. In the more than 40 years since then, I suspect that Wayne might have made a little progress here and there...

So 'typical taijiquan' in the sense that it is taijiquan, here pretty much in the (Malaysian) CMC incarnation. There are so many videos on the Internet, also of tuishou and other partner work, that by any discerning standards are not up to scratch. This is up to scratch.

Giles wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:The rest of the [original] video [with Wayne and Eric Fitzgerald] is pretty typical taijiquan.

Yes, it is. In the sense that, while nothing amazing, it's solid genuine taijiquan. Not wobbly, woo-woo, dubious, stiff, off-centre, self-deluding, embarrassing or anything else in that direction. Grounded, centred, upright, focused, relaxed. In the tuishou pattern from roughly 6.00 to 7.00 you can clearly see them using the body and not the arms to neutralize fast and focused pushes. Sure, Eric is using his body more fluently and neutralizing more fully than Wayne at that point in time (!), which makes sense since Wayne was clearly more the learner during this temporal snapshot. In the more than 40 years since then, I suspect that Wayne might have made a little progress here and there...

So 'typical taijiquan' in the sense that it is taijiquan, here pretty much in the (Malaysian) CMC incarnation. There are so many videos on the Internet, also of tuishou and other partner work, that by any discerning standards are not up to scratch. This is up to scratch.

Please don't attribute words to me that I did not type. I put precisely what I mean into this text and do not appreciate others editing what I express. If my meaning is unclear, by all means ask for clarification, but do not presume to speak for me.

I have not watched any of Wayne's videos at length, nor could I tell you which one he is in the gif.

I said I liked what Graham's teacher was demonstrating in the OP video that started this thread and that the rest of THAT video was pretty typical Taijiquan, i.e. a light fitness routine for the granola crowd.

OK, Origami, I stand corrected! My bad. After the ping-pong of different voices I misinterpreted your comment about which "original video" you were talking about. I assumed you meant the 'original video' showing Wayne from which Graham created the GIF.

In that case I apologize for falsifying your quoted remark and I appreciate your discontent. Will be more careful in the future.

Aside from that, I stand by my remarks about the other 'original video' with Wayne. Link doesn't work directly, just click on the box below:

oragami_itto wrote:I said I liked what Graham's teacher was demonstrating in the OP video

Are you sure you are not just saying that because you are afraid that Graham will create a gif of one of your videos if you don’t like it?

Jokes aside, personally I care little about how people do their forms, unless I see something special that I really appreciate. Everyone has their own reasons to do things the way they do. One of my best teachers had a terrible looking sloppy form, but he was still a very good practitioner with some really good qualities. So IME it’s often unnecessary to judge or draw too many conclusions about people and what they do.

Bao wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:I said I liked what Graham's teacher was demonstrating in the OP video

Are you sure you are not just saying that because you are afraid that Graham will create a gif of one of your videos if you don’t like it?

Jokes aside, personally I care little about how people do their forms, unless I see something special that I really appreciate. Everyone has their own reasons to do things the way they do. One of my best teachers had a terrible looking sloppy form, but he was still a very good practitioner with some really good qualities. So IME it’s often unnecessary to judge or draw too many conclusions about people and what they do.

Well he was working with four hands and I appreciate his methods.

Giles wrote:OK, Origami, I stand corrected! My bad. After the ping-pong of different voices I misinterpreted your comment about which "original video" you were talking about. I assumed you meant the 'original video' showing Wayne from which Graham created the GIF.

In that case I apologize for falsifying your quoted remark and I appreciate your discontent. Will be more careful in the future.

Aside from that, I stand by my remarks about the other 'original video' with Wayne. Link doesn't work directly, just click on the box below:

All good my good sir, nuance is difficult in this modern age!

Just my tuppance but taijiquan has always been "fistic" from Day 1 BUT that is no longer the case!

There is no need in this modern age (per bullets, guns, etc) since the 19th century has past. It had great value as part of a martial conditioning programme but as I have pointed out and you fellows know, the Nationalists did a number and made 24shiBeijingtaijiquan aka Beijing 24 Form the standard by which health and wellness was the goal of survival and a good way to mold the population by mandates on what should be the tools to help the nation.
ANyone who can see through the fitness taijicao and be proficient in its martial side is truly a feat to behold.

There are still some great people out there and we have to look closely to find them. They are on their way out (age wise)
Has anyone read recently about Sophia Delza and how she became a student of WU style? A very interesting background in her own words done by a UK practitioner.
I also came across a story (past 2 months) about the 1st female student of Yang Luchan.....It is interesting to note that 1/2 of the writeups of these exponents have only been profiled within the past 5 years and tells us that there are many others who were purposely left out to fit an agenda. I am glad we all bebefit from knowing "truth" about the total history as opposed to the fringe stories that seem to prop up the taijiquan obfuscation of its historical base.

It was the communists who created the Beijing "Yang" 24, and the "competition" routines. Many of the Yangs left Beijing. Once gong-fu and wu shu were legitimized, the communist agenda (according to the nationalists) was to take control of martial arts, and they did it through bureaucracy --i.e., making everything officially recognized --including who was who in each art.

There might be unknown people out there, but who do they prove themselves against to get practice and experience they can pass on? If they're there, does it make a difference? I mean; if you go to a school where the teacher has no lineage, but he trains people (who want) to compete, it might be more beneficial than studying with someone whose lineage is impeccable.

I don't know if Sophia's story is so new when I was studying Wu in the 70's my teacher gave me a copy of her book
It was one of only 2 books on the style in English
There was plenty of yang outside of Bejing and China well before the 24 was developed