Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:03 pm

Hi, Wayne.

I have no objection to anyone with legitimate learning and training experience consolidating what they have acquired into their own system. 8-)

My comment was totally in reference to the frauds who compose a piecemeal, Heinz 57 blend of martial arts taught as one system. :-\
Last edited by Doc Stier on Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:52 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:19 am

This is the problem - who gets to decide what is and isn't fake Tai Chi?

Tai Chi lacks any recognised, accepted or universally adopted method of testing, so it's the wild west. There's no way of fixing this - it is what it is!

Compare and contrast to martial sports - wrestling, MMA, BJJ, Sambo, Sanda, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc. All these can be tested and there's therefore no disagreement about what is and isn't legit.
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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby origami_itto on Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:31 am

GrahamB wrote:This is the problem - who gets to decide what is and isn't fake Tai Chi?

Tai Chi lacks any recognised, accepted or universally adopted method of testing, so it's the wild west. There's no way of fixing this - it is what it is!

Compare and contrast to martial sports - wrestling, MMA, BJJ, Sambo, Sanda, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc. All these can be tested and there's therefore no disagreement about what is and isn't legit.


Agreed, too much fuckin around and not enough finding out.

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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby yeniseri on Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:19 pm

I have never been a prolific teacher regarding student acquisition and maintenance but I have taught in enough places to see and understand how I have placed myself over the past 2 decades.
Luckily, the institutions that I taught understood the value of what taiji could potentially accomplish (the yangsheng concept i.e. wellness, fitness and 'stress management, albeit subjective as to personal intrinsic well being after practice ???
1. Taught at a local park district (yes Tai Chi Arthritis)TM) Dr Paul Lam NOTE: Even though I had been teaching for 10 years, the park district required some lype of 'certification' to attest to knowledge, affiliation and exposure so Dr Lam's course fit the bill. For the seniors who particiapted, they needed to have the signature of their family MD that they were able to participate without problems and that tai chi was safe and doable ;D
2. community college continuing education programme
3. university complementary medicine class where acupuncture, qigong taijiquan, tui'na, etc were introduced to students (for 3 years)


The above mentioned locations, being quasi-medical establishments see a value where its introduction necessitates a scientific review of some kind where purpose, value, necessity, etc are worth more than titles, lineages or special closeness to Master XYZ. For those needing to understand what I mean, go to "PubMed" and type "taijiquan". "tai chi", "qigong". I have mentioned this beofre but just a reminder to see where I am coming from regarding having a literate background when one teaches beyond "the shingle".

The stardards of, and for teaching taiji(quan) have never been pragmatic or open to discussion but there must be a objective and knowledgeable base of known critera that all can understand as opposed to the poo poo mumbo jumbo that often permeates "tai cheese" to the gullible public.
One of the better sources I have come across is the Tai Chi Union of Great Britain so I have linked their template for proper teaching, which is at odds with what 80-90% of teachers teach today/ Link: https://www.taichiunion.com/tcu/wp-cont ... z1Eu_GJdic

Though I had developed my own standards based on the external criteria, both mirrored an intent for the safety of the individual taking /participating along with criteria in assessing/learning and applying those principles necessary in achieving insight/tools to better wellness and fitness.
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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby everything on Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:47 pm

What you’re talking about happens in every category of “product”.

I guess obviously that’s why they say McDojo.

Junk food has a high demand.

You may want to teach something that would help, say, Fedor.
That’s a niche market and you’d have to know more than anyone here even ever claims.

You may want to teach seniors to have balance.
A far more “do good” goal.
In that sense, even “bad” tai chi may help!!
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby Michael Babin on Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:33 pm

The topic in this thread is unsolvable in most ways as most beginners I experienced in my part of the world had zero experience in or understanding about Yang-style taiji except that someone [often a well-meaning doctor or physiotherapist] had told them it was easy to do and would help them relax.

A partial solution is to help any beginner understand what they are looking for from their training and what realistic skills they can bring to bear to achieve those goals. Of course, that also means the would-be student may bugger off when they learn that solo form isn't easy and that they must put in a fair bit of work to see any potential benefits... and that even a recreational martial art involves contact and the risk of some injury.

Some Yang taiji teachers reach a reasonable compromise by dividing their group classes into solo form or push-hands or martial training and letting students stream themselves accordingly. That's how I handled group classes, in any case, over the 25 years that I taught those.

My bagua classes were different. I only taught those willing -- and able -- to train the total package I offered; but even there, no one was forced to go faster than their own levels of progression.

Some taiji teachers chose to teach only seniors and special needs groups and my hats off to them. Any exercise is often better for those people than no exercise and the social aspect of those classes is also beneficial... as long as tea and crumpets at break-time isn't the only reason that the students are there.

On the other hand, I had a colleague in Ottawa who only taught modified taiji and qigong to seniors and those with special needs. She once confided to me after a few drinks that she like teaching that way as she only had to be a little better at the training than those she taught.

Sadly, I think that's a common enough attitude even in those who claim to teach more vigorously and competently.
Last edited by Michael Babin on Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby everything on Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:56 pm

In some ways we should be happy.

Here’s a “technology” that a lot of people can learn very poorly yet still get benefits and teach others to get benefits.

My elderly mom still does a few moves to work on balance.

Falling is a high risk and common scenario for seniors.

Walking is great but even bad tai chi is better in a scientifically quantified way for reducing this very key risk.

Everything beyond that is gravy.

Whether you want something applicable like judo.

Or you are more interested in the neigong aspects.

Or both.

So the learning curve is gentle at first.

Then quite steep.

The benefits are there on any part of the curve.

More things should be like that.
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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:12 pm

Bad tai chi is not necessarily benign
It can make the knees unstable and balance unreliable
Look at all the so called masters who don’t live a long life
Did their substandard art shorten their life
Captain Kirk is outliving many and I don’t think he looks like he has put a lot of energy into his health maintenance
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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby yeniseri on Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:42 am

everything wrote:In some ways we should be happy.

Here’s a “technology” that a lot of people can learn very poorly yet still get benefits and teach others to get benefits.

My elderly mom still does a few moves to work on balance.

Falling is a high risk and common scenario for seniors.

Walking is great but even bad tai chi is better in a scientifically quantified way for reducing this very key risk.

Or you are more interested in the neigong aspects.

Or both.

So the learning curve is gentle at first.

The benefits are there on any part of the curve.

More things should be like that.


Very intuitive!
It has been noted that even sham acupuncture has shown 'some' benefit akin to a placebo effect That is why I have stated that the way one approaches, teaches, interacts, etc is part of an attending effect that has the potential for some type and level of cure that benefits the indiviudal ONe may not reach G&d by prayer but prayer influences s/he who prays

In my tai chi for arthritis class, the studenbts had problems remembering a routine (form) but the individual postures that they did practice went a long way. Honestly, I was surprised they stayed for 9 yers so I learned alot from that experience. That even influenced me more to realize the importnace of zhanzhuang/wujizhuang (zhaungfa) in training and its incorporation into the corpus of taiji "physical conditioning".
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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby everything on Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:03 pm

Yes it’s hard to think of another art that has this property. Maybe yoga.

I joke that TJQ is a Rorschach test. People think it’s this or that in some very part to whole way and they are almost always partly right.

My mom would never care about that. She does Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg.
It doesn’t do that “bad for knees” stuff the way she does it.
She doesn’t do what I’d call “Qigong”.
She doesn’t do something like a judo or jiu jitsu.
She has no interest in MA. Kicking people. Self defense.

Maybe she does something meditative. Hard to say.

It doesn’t matter. Relative to her needs, she maybe gets more from this art than any of us do.

Most of us on here disparage it or lament it’s state, hahaha.

It’s probably not hyperbole to say it’s the most widely beneficial and applied piece of TCM even though it wasn’t meant to be that way by the original teachers.
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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:01 am

Historically it was quite specific what people regarded as Taiji and what was not.

After the cultural revolution it morphed into a broader context, moving away from the Martial underpinnings it was once noted for. For those looking for functionality they should clearly understand the focus of what is being taught and what is not.

If it’s not clear, maybe they really need to examine what they’re seeking.

Besides, we knew people inside the palace got the real skill. As the famous saying goes “Of Luchan’s students, Wanchun (萬春) got his hard fajin, Lingshan (凌山) was adapt as throwing, and Quanyou (全佑) was skilled at neutralization.”

So these were his three best students (besides his sons of course). Wangchun, Lingshan, and Quanyou were Manchurian guards working at Prince Duan’s palace.




. It is at this point that Xue Yusheng thought of Wang Maozhai. Also a senior disciple of Quan You, Wang was not much involved in the business martial art.

Throughout his life he operated a profitable building supply company called Tong Sheng Fu (同盛福) in the center of the city (Don Dan district).

He didn’t need to teach, and worry about any politics associated with it. As predicted, Wang Maozhai had no reservations when he met Yuan Liang, and beat Yuan Liang as he would with anyone else he met.
Of course he did not injury Yuan Liang, but gave Yuan Liang a very clear idea of his skill. Yuan Liang, thoroughly impressed, immediately knelled down.


https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif


Wonder if what they did back then would be accepted now as taiji by most people.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:39 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Stop the Spread of Fake Tai Chi

Postby origami_itto on Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:54 pm

windwalker wrote:
Wonder if what they did back then would be accepted now as taiji by most people.


Or vice versa.
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