dedicated to the discussion of the chinese internal martial arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang, taijiquan, related arts, and anything else best discussed over a bottle of rum
marvin8 wrote:Both at 1:49 of the OP video and the Silat video, the feeder is not in a realistic fighting distance, position or angle to punch. Maul Mornie's Silat approach is a little more realistic here.
Even Tony Blauer says about his SPEAR system, in this video, "If you’re trying to spar with the SPEAR system, you’ll probably get you’re a** kicked. If I just try to walk around and try to do this [gestures] against a Thai boxer, boxer or grappler, you’re going to get you’re a** kicked. The SPEAR is a bridge to your complex motor skills."
In this other video, they discuss and demonstrate more realistically two approaches (fight or flight) to a bat or stick attack:
Sport and self protection/counter ambush are different contexts-- there are things that cross over, and things that don't. Regardless of context, though, things have to be developed before they can be applied-- I think that's all that's being shown in the OP, is the concept. Agreed that what Maul is showing is closer to how it would actually be used in a fight. As an aside, there a bunch of applications for that triangle/wedge structure in dealing with people that need to be moved without wanting to injure them.
Regarding the bat video, the attacks shown aren't necessarily unrealistic, but they are also not good examples of skilled attacks. (By "skilled" I don't mean it should look like kali or sword fighting or something, but there are ways to hide the weapon/attack and maintain balance while sucker punching someone with a bat.) If someone is going to stand there waving a bat around and daring you to come at them, and for some reason you actually have to, it seems easier to cover your entry with a thrown object like a trash can or a chair. Even without that, though, the timing is easier if someone is flailing about like the guy in the video.
Last edited by Bhassler on Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Afa the bat thing, I dunno. I'm not sure when I'd be attacking someone with one --especially from any distance. At this point in my life, they'd have to be coming at me.
Otoh, if I had the bat, and he ran in, I'd poke rather than baseball swing. But, it's good to practice and think about different situations. Anything can happen.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
GrahamB wrote:Sure - but things can be old with a lineage going back years, and still be influenced by other things. Just like the karate I mentioned. The 1880s-1900s was a time of great expansion for the europeans and in general the leaders of the east wanted to copy their empire building skills.
I don't doubt that outside influences can play a role. Muay Thai as we know it today was heavily influenced by boxing. Some Muay Chaiya teachers include groundwork from silat or ju jitsu. Some are honest, some less so.
All I can say is that to my knowledge, and I am no expert, the original Boran systems that still exist remain fairly unchanged. My own teacher was a former pro muay thai fighter, so he occasionally introduces a drill from outside Muay Chaiya. He is always quick to tell me that it isn't Muay Chaiya, but it might help.
C.J.W. wrote:Just came across this nice little clip which demonstrates applications of WC's triangle (wedge) principle using a simple opening motion taken from the wooden dummy form.
I'm always more impressed by people who can effectively apply the basics of an art than those who like to show off endless intricate techniques.
P.S. The fact that this WC comes from a non-Yip Man lineage is also an exhilarating change. (It's Yuen Kai Wan WC from Vietnam.)
I think it is rare to see a WC player moving forward with such intent, so that's something. Of course, what happens after that initial contact is the big question. If they are going to smash the opponent into a wall, I'd like to think they would unleash elbows and knees.
marvin8 wrote:Both at 1:49 of the OP video and the Silat video, the feeder is not in a realistic fighting distance, position or angle to punch. Maul Mornie's Silat approach is a little more realistic here.
Even Tony Blauer says about his SPEAR system, in this video, "If you’re trying to spar with the SPEAR system, you’ll probably get you’re a** kicked. If I just try to walk around and try to do this [gestures] against a Thai boxer, boxer or grappler, you’re going to get you’re a** kicked. The SPEAR is a bridge to your complex motor skills."
In this other video, they discuss and demonstrate more realistically two approaches (fight or flight) to a bat or stick attack:
Sport and self protection/counter ambush are different contexts-- there are things that cross over, and things that don't. ...
The OP demo context is stop the punch, weapon or knife threat. Not sure why you brought up "sport," because my bat video was in an alley with street clothes. Now that you mention it, what does "cross over" from sport to self protection is footwork. In the above video andFury vs. Wilder, they both take a step and stop outside of the distance where they can be hit (yield, lure/yin), to elicit a committed reaction from the opponent. Then, they take another step(s) to gain a superior position (double weight), control and issue (fa)—Concept: "Hit and don't get hit" and "If the opponent does not move, then I do not move. At the opponent's slightest move, I move first."
Bhassler wrote:Regarding the bat video, the attacks shown aren't necessarily unrealistic, but they are also not good examples of skilled attacks. (By "skilled" I don't mean it should look like kali or sword fighting or something, but there are ways to hide the weapon/attack and maintain balance while sucker punching someone with a bat.)
If someone is going to stand there waving a bat around and daring you to come at them, and for some reason you actually have to, it seems easier to cover your entry with a thrown object like a trash can or a chair. Even without that, though, the timing is easier if someone is flailing about like the guy in the video.
At 10:00 in Phase 3, the opponent chases, instead of "stands there." They go through several scenarios which is why i said, "they discuss and demonstrate more realistically."
Regarding the OP guy extending his arms (Wedge) and SPEAR, Djurdjevic writes in his article "The 'flinch reflex:'
Dan Djurdjevi on March 05, 2011 wrote:Consider the video below of musician Glenn Danzig being punched. He exhibits a rather typical flinch reflex, and it doesn't involve any kind of "cover". Rather, it involves his left hand shooting out in an (ultimately ineffectual) attempt to stop the punch landing.
Musician Glenn Danzig exhibits a flinch reflex against a punch. Note his defensive arm movement.
... Even my 4 year old daughter's flinches don't involve a "cover". Just today I took her to the park and we were throwing a ball. Unfortunately she is inclined to panic when things get near her face. So she closes her eyes, pulls her body back and shoots her arms out, ram-rod straight in front of her.
In following real baseball bat attack, the defender times the opponent's swing load by extending his left arm and stepping/slipping (yielding) to the right taking his head off line, similar to the baseball bat demo:
At :38, the OP video guy says, “That is why you should move like this no matter if it’s a short stick or knife.” However, he doesn’t control the weapon after the push.
Travis Scott offers a $10,000 Challenge to Funker-Tactical. "If you can catch any one of my 300 knife attacks in a row (at normal intensity) in a Russian tie, I will give you $10,000."
FightSmartTrav on Mar 20, 2021 wrote: At 1:44 of the followings video, "What doesn't work is the bent arm disarms and the moves that require your opponent to mysteriously leave his arm extended while you fumble your way through some preposterous disarm or the massive over committal defenses that will leave you dead if they don’t work for any reason. Moves that don’t work. …
$10,000 Challenge to Funker-Tactical. If you can catch any one of my 300 knife attacks in a row (at normal intensity) in a Russian tie, I will give you $10,000."
In this video, I respond very directly to Funker Tactical's straw-man argument, and issue a friendly challenge of my own. Will he respond? Not sure... you should ask him.
I mentioned sport because you quoted Blauer specifically talking about sparring sport fighters. Or did you not read what you quoted?
And I specifically did not say the bat attack was unrealistic, I said it was unskilled. Those words do not mean the same things.
Re: Djurdevic/Danzig I'm not sure why Djurdevic should be considered an authority, but that's not really a flinch response in the sense of an involuntary response to an unexpected stimulus/attack, since Danzig pushed the other guy, who responded with an attack from like 5 feet away. That's less of a flinch than a guy who was acting tough and ran into someone who was willing to take it further. And as far as that goes, that video is neither sport nor self defense, it's a couple of guys being idiots and engaging in a monkey dance-- which is a still different context, but one in which sport fighting skills can be tremendous.
Last edited by Bhassler on Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bhassler wrote:I mentioned sport because you quoted Blauer specifically talking about sparring sport fighters. Or did you not read what you quoted?
Got it now.
Bhassler wrote:IAnd I specifically did not say the bat attack was unrealistic, I said it was unskilled. Those words do not mean the same things.
I know, I did not say you did. I see you said:
Bhassler wrote:there are ways to hide the weapon/attack and maintain balance while sucker punching someone with a bat.
Their baseball bat defense should still apply. Continue to ask (step) from a safe position, until you get the correct reaction, then attempt to enter. If the opponent is too skilled/balanced/positioned, then run away.
Bhassler wrote:Re: Djurdevic/Danzig, that's not really a flinch response in the sense of an involuntary response to an unexpected stimulus/attack, since he pushed the other guy, who responded with an attack from like 5 feet away. That's less of a flinch than a guy who was acting tough and ran into someone who was willing to take it further. And as far as that goes, that video is neither sport nor self defense, it's a couple of guys being idiots and engaging in a monkey dance-- which is a still different context, but one in which sport fighting skills can be tremendous.
I believe the question is, should Danzig have extended his arms and moved in (wedge) or yielded, moved his head, then entered? In hindsight, it's the latter.
