the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Coach Jan Lucanus - Sports Tai Chi Push Hands
Oct 16, 2021

My first commentary on 16X Tai Chi World Cup Push Hands (Tuishou) Champion Chen Chi-Cheng aka @tuishouchen matches, this one versus professional San Shou, San Da, and Muay Thai Champion Ian Morgan. This match is played with a collarbone to hip grappling area, akin to Tai Chi World Cup rules. I will go into greater detail on future videos, but for this quick clip, I’m highlighting 4 moves to get people who are unfamiliar used to seeing the science and timing of world class Push Hands. I recommended replaying this video in extreme slow motion and zooming in for greater detail. I go over many of these moves on my channel:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1ZeCTqpmTE

So a sanda and muay thai guy tries push hands and loses to a push hands champion as no strikes are allowed

Rhen wrote:So a sanda and muay thai guy tries push hands and loses to a push hands champion as no strikes are allowed

Well... I mean... It's a push hands competition... Do you criticize boxing matches because they don't kick or takedown?


There's some nice push hands skills on display here, more than the usual two bulls butting heads you see so much of.

oragami_itto wrote:

Rhen wrote:So a sanda and muay thai guy tries push hands and loses to a push hands champion as no strikes are allowed

Well... I mean... It's a push hands competition... Do you criticize boxing matches because they don't kick or takedown?


There's some nice push hands skills on display here, more than the usual two bulls butting heads you see so much of.

No, not criticizing that there are no strikes allowed, but I don't find it very spectacular.
What's unique in the vid, worth mentioning?

jbb73 wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:

Rhen wrote:So a sanda and muay thai guy tries push hands and loses to a push hands champion as no strikes are allowed

Well... I mean... It's a push hands competition... Do you criticize boxing matches because they don't kick or takedown?


There's some nice push hands skills on display here, more than the usual two bulls butting heads you see so much of.

No, not criticizing that there are no strikes allowed, but I don't find it very spectacular.
What's unique in the vid, worth mentioning?

Are you logging into multiple accounts here?

There's whatever you see there.

Tui-shou which is learned and practiced for the sake of more offensive competition priorities is a different beast than traditional tui-shou methods learned and trained as sensitivity drills with defensive 'listening' skill priorities. The latter methods ultimately develop more valuable realtime fighting skills, imo, both physically and mentally. ymmv.

Doc Stier wrote:Tui-shou which is learned and practiced for the sake of more offensive competition priorities is a different beast than traditional tui-shou methods learned and trained as sensitivity drills with defensive 'listening' skill priorities. The latter methods ultimately develop more valuable realtime fighting skills, imo, both physically and mentally. ymmv. :P

I don't know if it's a difference of offensive or defensive mindset (how can you practice one without the other?) as it is the presence (or lack of) pedagogical constraints that force the development of specific attributes. But that never happens unless you have specific goals for the drill and understand it well enough to put the constraints in place to challenge those goals appropriately. In my experience, most people practice with a sort of 'generic' intent, and therefore quickly grow bored with the more limited practices, and then jump to less structured formats because it feels more like they're doing something.

Bhassler wrote:

Doc Stier wrote:Tui-shou which is learned and practiced for the sake of more offensive competition priorities is a different beast than traditional tui-shou methods learned and trained as sensitivity drills with defensive 'listening' skill priorities. The latter methods ultimately develop more valuable realtime fighting skills, imo, both physically and mentally. ymmv.

I don't know if it's a difference of offensive or defensive mindset (how can you practice one without the other?) as it is the presence (or lack of) pedagogical constraints that force the development of specific attributes. But that never happens unless you have specific goals for the drill and understand it well enough to put the constraints in place to challenge those goals appropriately. In my experience, most people practice with a sort of 'generic' intent, and therefore quickly grow bored with the more limited practices, and then jump to less structured formats because it feels more like they're doing something.

I wasn't referring to choreographed push hand drills alone. Freestyle push hands practice, both stationary and with active moving steps, is also important. However, a competitive mindset tends to focus on winning or losing, which in turn focuses primarily on scoring points offensively, rather than on developing defensive skills for serious realtime fighting applications.

oragami_itto wrote:
Are you logging into multiple accounts here?

oragami_itto wrote:There's whatever you see there.

I see nothing extraordinary. I see a pro in Tuishou pushing a pro in striking; that's what I would expect to see.
What do you see?

jbb73 wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:
Are you logging into multiple accounts here?

oragami_itto wrote:There's whatever you see there.

I see nothing extraordinary. I see a pro in Tuishou pushing a pro in striking; that's what I would expect to see.
What do you see?

Precisely that.

Both pre arranged and free style pushing in the traditional manner have their place
If you become bored you have not seen the real thing
The one with lesser skill should in the most part attack
The one with the greater skill should in most parts respond only in the defensive manner
Even the fixed drills should have the reality of the unexpected attack

Doc Stier wrote:I wasn't referring to choreographed push hand drills alone. Freestyle push hands practice, both stationary and with active moving steps, is also important. However, a competitive mindset tends to focus on winning or losing, which in turn focuses primarily on scoring points offensively, rather than on developing defensive skills for serious realtime fighting applications.

Agree. Although as an add-on for non-competitive tuishou, intended to develop the defensive (and offensive!) skills you describe, it can be useful for one of the partners to temporarily take on the role of 'competition pusher'. Not always, but from time to time. The other partner then has the role of staying soft, applying peng and lu, and - if it's good - quickly uprooting the 'aggressive' guy using good technique. Or quickly getting pushed himself if it doesn't work. But that's OK because ultimately it's still mutually supporting practice where you can invest in loss, not a real competition. Then switch roles...

wayne hansen wrote:Both pre arranged and free style pushing in the traditional manner have their place
If you become bored you have not seen the real thing
The one with lesser skill should in the most part attack
The one with the greater skill should in most parts respond only in the defensive manner
Even the fixed drills should have the reality of the unexpected attack

Basically agree. But if the one with less skill attacks most of the time, then in my experience he or she will tend to get stuck in trying to muscle their way through the moves. When I'm doing tuishou with a student, I'll first let them attack hard for a while just to show them that in practice softness really can work against hardness, then switch to me feeding them plenty of more or less 'digestible' attacks, giving them the task of neutralising these with good technique and softness. If instead they spend most of their time attacking then, in my experience, they see that I can defend and counter well and might be 'impressed' but they themselves don't get the feel for relaxing and keeping centred when under physical and mental pressure. And that's the key to many things.

wayne hansen wrote:Both pre arranged and free style pushing in the traditional manner have their place
If you become bored you have not seen the real thing
...

I agree. In traditional training push hands is the first two person drill. It's one thing to use jin to move your body and another to have the resistance of a partner. For many beginners using jin with some light resistance helps to understand the jin path and to start understanding alignment. In the west some people who teach jin based body mechanics break the simple one hand fixed step push hands into even simpler exercises of how to root into the ground with jin and how to push out of the ground with jin. A few hours of good training in fixed step push hands can really help some people's form training.

Tai chi is not against using strength it is against unproductive or inappropriate strength
Jin v lec
Most people I have problems are those who use dumb strength
Those who promote a resisting partner usually mean a dumb unskilled partner
Take boxing for instance those that go into the ring don’t use dumb strength
They use highly refined strength
A dumb enthusiastic haymaker exponent may win a boxing match but it is not the usual case