How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

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How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby marvin8 on Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:36 am

Martial Art Path
Nov 3, 2021

How Tai Chi emphasizing circles/mass and Wing Chun emphasizing lines/acceleration both explore generating force where Force = Mass x Acceleration


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7u1BIRZ3po

Martial Art Path
Nov 8, 2021

Adding Wing Chun to Tai Chi; How Wing Chun elements appear in Tai Chi when responding to fast striking


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiT1touyCtM

At :42 Martial Art Path says, "Dan Inosanto said Bruce Lee called Jeet Kune Do — chi sao without touching." At 2:48 Dan Inosanto says, "He [Bruce] had a system that worked on the outside, where he can sort of hit and go. He developed a system that he calls chi sao without touching. ..."

Martial Art Path
Sep 23, 2021

Is Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, Chi Sao without touching, and how do you practice sticky hands without touching hands?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQAmwftmvw
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:52 am

I dunno. In push hands every wing Chun player I've worked with seems to treat it solely as a bridging exercise. All they are interested in is moving your hands out of the way so they can get a clear strike.
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby Bao on Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:06 am

Oh my... :(
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby marvin8 on Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:41 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I dunno. In push hands every wing Chun player I've worked with seems to treat it solely as a bridging exercise. All they are interested in is moving your hands out of the way so they can get a clear strike.

Yes, that is a difference per Stephen's instructor, Sifu Hung Le. I believe Stephen is saying there are differences, but also commonalities (e.g., circles, lines).

At 7:51, Sifu Hung Le says, "In Wing Chun, you have to use at least 2 movements. In Tai Chi, I step here and expand already." I was explaining similar movements and timing in this thread.

Past RSF thread, "Interview with Sifu Hung Le on Tai Chi as a fighting system:"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIOJE1zVfPw
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:48 pm

Yes not much difference between poor tai chi and bad WC
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:29 pm

marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I dunno. In push hands every wing Chun player I've worked with seems to treat it solely as a bridging exercise. All they are interested in is moving your hands out of the way so they can get a clear strike.

Yes, that is a difference per Stephen's instructor, Sifu Hung Le. I believe Stephen is saying there are differences, but also commonalities (e.g., circles, lines).

At 7:51, Sifu Hung Le says, "In Wing Chun, you have to use at least 2 movements. In Tai Chi, I step here and expand already." I was explaining similar movements and timing in this thread.

Past RSF thread, "Interview with Sifu Hung Le on Tai Chi as a fighting system:"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIOJE1zVfPw


So I didn't actually watch the video before responding the first time. This guy rubs me the wrong way, which I mentioned before.

So I watched some, and man, it just didn't get any better. Look at the way his student is moving in that first video from around 0:38-0:43. It seems like he could stand to spend a lot more time on fundamentals before having comparative combat strategies thrown at him like so much spaghetti at a wall. What's he really getting out of this exercise other than smacked in the face? Proud chest, butt sucking out, wobbly and disorganized, a responsible teacher would have much to address with this student before getting to this lesson, imo.

As far as the similarities, it's a bit of confusing roots and branches imo. Taijiquan isn't the technique, it's what powers the technique to make it effective.

So like his example with the circles and the arm drag, okay, sure that works, but is it really taijiquan? Is he threading the nine bends pearl or just yanking on an arm?

I dunno, like I said something about this guy just bugs me so it's hard to see anything good in his videos.
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:46 pm

Okay so I'm watching a bit more here and I think I take issue with his central thesis in re the similarities. Around 2:30 he sums it up as "with both of them you're exploring mass and acceleration" and around 1:45 he says with push hands you want to focus on mass.

This seems incorrect to me, but I struggle to find the words to express exactly how. We weigh and measure and transform forces, not masses, though they are related as the products of mass and movement.
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:43 pm

I find it interesting how most martial artists tend to focus on the similarities between various arts rather than the differences.

IMO, similarities are easy to find because if you look at fighting arts in general terms, there are ALWAYS similarities -- especially when basic laws of Physics such as mass x acceleration are thrown into the mix.

I'm personally much more impressed by those who can explain and demonstrate the subtle differences between the arts.
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby Bhassler on Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:14 pm

C.J.W. wrote:I find it interesting how most martial artists tend to focus on the similarities between various arts rather than the differences.

IMO, similarities are easy to find because if you look at fighting arts in general terms, there are ALWAYS similarities -- especially when basic laws of Physics such as mass x acceleration are thrown into the mix.

I'm personally much more impressed by those who can explain and demonstrate the subtle differences between the arts.


I've posted this here before: https://wimsblog.com/2018/04/how-to-nev ... -training/

I've also stated more recently that people love to say how arts x and y are similar, but really it's their own skill (or lack thereof) that makes everything seem the same, and not really anything to do with the specific arts in question.
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:43 pm

A fair and accurate comparison of the similarities and differences between any two martial arts, imo, requires the demonstration and explanation of each art at a very high skill level, both externally and internally. It would be interesting and informative to see additional video comparisons of these two styles featuring other notable teachers as well. 8-)
Last edited by Doc Stier on Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby marvin8 on Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:07 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Okay so I'm watching a bit more here and I think I take issue with his central thesis in re the similarities. Around 2:30 he sums it up as "with both of them you're exploring mass and acceleration" and around 1:45 he says with push hands you want to focus on mass.

This seems incorrect to me, but I struggle to find the words to express exactly how. We weigh and measure and transform forces, not masses, though they are related as the products of mass and movement.

Most MAs are going to have circles and lines, but have different techniques, body method and strategies. I don't get or agree with everything Stephen or Hung say.

At 2:14 Hung Le says, "It all depends on your force. If you come to me with a lot of force, I am not going to use short force. It won't work. Because, you'll shut me down. I can't generate (power) like that. So, I have to borrow to draw and turn it back into you. ..."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtZ1Wus3A3k
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:20 pm

I like what Hung is saying.
Particularly when he's talking about advancing. People tend to look at the five steps as being just about footwork, but I consider them to be important encapsulations of strategies.

"When it is time to advance,
advance without hesitation.
If you meet no obstacle,
continue to advance.
Failing to advance when the time is right
is a lost opportunity.
Seizing the opportunity to advance,
you will surely be the victor. "
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby Bao on Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:11 am

Doc Stier wrote:A fair and accurate comparison of the similarities and differences between any two martial arts, imo, requires the demonstration and explanation of each art at a very high skill level, both externally and internally. It would be interesting and informative to see additional video comparisons of these two styles featuring other notable teachers as well. 8-)



Agreed and very well said.

Now let me translate your eloquent words for you into a reader’s digest kind of version:

The video suck immensely. There’s no Tai Chi evident whatsoever.
Before being able to show any kind of similarities or differences, you need to actually understand what you are talking about.


And let me add this to emphasize the meaning of the words:
WTF!!!???
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:02 am

Bao wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:A fair and accurate comparison of the similarities and differences between any two martial arts, imo, requires the demonstration and explanation of each art at a very high skill level, both externally and internally. It would be interesting and informative to see additional video comparisons of these two styles featuring other notable teachers as well. 8-)



Agreed and very well said.

Now let me translate your eloquent words for you into a reader’s digest kind of version:

The video suck immensely. There’s no Tai Chi evident whatsoever.
Before being able to show any kind of similarities or differences, you need to actually understand what you are talking about.


And let me add this to emphasize the meaning of the words:
WTF!!!???

C'mon, Bao! Don't be shy. Just tell us the unvarnished truth as you see it. Lol ;D
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Re: How Tai Chi and Wing Chun are the Same

Postby Bao on Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:10 am

;D ;D ;D


Doc Stier wrote:C'mon, Bao! Don't be shy. Just tell us the unvarnished truth as you see it. Lol ;D



Well, sorry then. You are right, I shouldn't put my words in your mouth. So let me re-phrase the whole damn thing and tell you how I really and honestly look at the video:

The video suck immensely. There’s no Tai Chi evident whatsoever.
Before being able to show any kind of similarities or differences, you need to actually understand what you are talking about.


And let me add this to emphasize the meaning of the words:
WTF!!!???

;D ;D ;D
Last edited by Bao on Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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