Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

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Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:01 am

Flowboxer
Oct 21, 2021

In this video I breakdown this old Chinese guy's Tai Chi Fa Jin! I Don't know who he is or what style (though my Spider sense says Wu Taijiquan), but I like what he's doing and thought it worth sharing and unpacking.

If you are interested in Tai Chi Chuan as a martial art, please do subscribe to Flowboxer (this Channel). And if you live in Edinburgh and are looking to develop your taijiquan combat skills or even just develop your push hands skills, please do get in touch to find out about the Edinburgh Taijiquan Boxing Club.

For the old masters own explanation of what he is doing, go here: https://youtu.be/mQsBJRTPPJc

Best,

James Tripp


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjWc99TV78w

Flowboxer
Nov 5, 2021

When people think of rooting in tai chi chuan they often think of a master taking a stance and grounding out the pushes of one or many 'testers'. But rooting is of little use if it comes at the cost of agility.

In this video we look at the use of rooting to create explosive fa jin strikes AND drive position changes at the same time.

We look at some of the footwork overlaps between tai chi and boxing, focusing on the front-step shuffle (thanks to Short Boxing for the footage), demonstrated here by Vasyl Lomachenko.

For more on taijiquan (combat tai chi) in this era of MMA and more, please do subscribe to the channel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz5YnoLf6Ec
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:12 am

In this video I breakdown this old Chinese guy's Tai Chi Fa Jin! I Don't know who he is or what style (though my Spider sense says Wu Taijiquan), but I like what he's doing and thought it worth sharing and unpacking.


Don't agree with his analysis, it seems very physical for lack of a better word, as is his approach.
The guy being pushed in the clip was a friend of my teacher.
A Mr bai he studied wu style tai ji from teacher wang peisheng

would come to park where we practiced and push...

He has skill.

The teacher has more...

Saw the clip used to make The analysis a while back...the analysis, done leaves out some very important points which if followed will tend to lead a person to completely missing whats happening. If attempted against the first person pushed the clip Mr Bai, would be a mistake...

From the original link used in the analysis.

Now INTENTION, QI. is the key point.

So now when an action is done, what’s we add in? As everyone said we must “EXTERNAL THREE COOPERATION”. Shoulder and waist, Hand and foot, elbow and knee, after placed, the “EXTERNAL THREE COOPERATION” Cooperated. When you release it, it will be "INNER THREE COOPERATION”




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQsBJRTPPJc

The write up and translation done by
Anthony Yap
I don't know about this master ,the video is from Youku . I found that the video explanation is so good that why I downloaded and added Chinese subtitles and sharing in my channels.


His answer to a question I had asked seeing some one from my teachers group in the clip.
His write up quite detailed, translation of what the teacher is saying....

With out the inner part the outer part discussed in the analysis won't work...

Style or method of the teacher...
Teachers often develop into their own style or method based long yrs of experience,
not necessarily reflective of one distinct style/method.

good clip...thanks for posting...don't agree with the analysis.

Translation done by Mr Yap, does a good job explaining the method, although there are some things
he mentions may not be quite correct as it is a translation...
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:46 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby suckinlhbf on Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:23 am

The old master could be 李经梧. He learnt Chen Taiji, Wu Taiji, Bagua, Xinyi Liuhe, Tong Bei, and Bajiquan. Passed in 1997.
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby everything on Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:47 am

thanks for adding the original clip. more or less skipped/will skip watching the analysis based on ww's comments, but glad to get to the "source material".
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby Bao on Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:55 pm

windwalker wrote:Don't agree with his analysis, it seems very physical for lack of a better word, as is his approach.


Personally I don’t mind a physical explanation if it hits the mark. But I don’t think his does.

Any master works intuitively from what he has learned and built up through the years, physically and mentally. You can break up things into methods for beginners, but it seldom represents what is actually going on. And the person doing it, has no thought about following a certain method.


The guy being pushed in the clip was a friend of my teacher.
A Mr bai he studied wu style tai ji from teacher wang peisheng
would come to park where we practiced and push...
He has skill.
The teacher has more....


Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Wang Peisheng has several outstanding students. He seems to have been a fantastic teacher.
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:20 pm

Bao wrote:
windwalker wrote:Don't agree with his analysis, it seems very physical for lack of a better word, as is his approach.


Personally I don’t mind a physical explanation if it hits the mark. But I don’t think his does.

.


Agree :)

The Analysis offered, is completely opposite of what the teacher was talking about. :-\

The OPs clip the "Analysis". Completely ignored what was translated in the source video for the his analysis presenting his own.

He offers commentary on an old friend and his reactions, who I've met a long while back, interacted with, and watched him interact with others....
is totally funny.... ;D

My friend, is quite solid in his skill set...

What I meant by physical, it completely ignores the explanation given by the teacher concerning the 3 externals, and 3 internals combined

Now INTENTION, QI... is the key point. So now when an action is done, what’s we add in?

As everyone said we must “EXTERNAL THREE COOPERATION”.

Shoulder and waist, Hand and foot, elbow and knee, after placed,
the “EXTERNAL THREE COOPERATION”

Cooperated. When you release it, it will be "INNER THREE COOPERATION”
You do every action the same,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQsBJRTPPJc

My interest in OP was the source clip seeing it a while back, seeing someone I used to know, with a skilled teacher with translations done in English by
Mr Anthony Yap

Thought it was well presented with the translations offering explanations in English, freely shared by the teacher to those there..
It's not often teachers of high skill level are so open about their craft.

Offered my own view points ,,,for comparison

Others have theirs..
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:56 pm

I like Anthony who is part of the Huang lineage
The teacher is skilled but his partner just waits to be thrown away
The best example is how he jumps from the one finger push
Also he never seeks the centre
When the teacher moves his elbows to the sides and back behind his back the student should move his hands to the chest
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:22 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I like Anthony who is part of the Huang lineage
The teacher is skilled but his partner just waits to be thrown away
The best example is how he jumps from the one finger push
Also he never seeks the centre
When the teacher moves his elbows to the sides and back behind his back the student should move his hands to the chest


Always interesting reading,,, :)



The teacher is skilled but his partner just waits to be thrown away
The best example is how he jumps from the one finger push




There is no waiting, he's already been "hit" His center has been disrupted.
He's. not jumping it's more like catching his balance....or reacting to losing it.

The "one finger" is not pushing,,,,

the teacher explained part of this, why, what and how....

Taiji at one time was known as "touch boxing" among other names before it became known as "taiji"


Also he never seeks the centre


Interesting,,,the teacher talks of emptiness, if one can sense the others center it means the other is not "empty".

kinda the point...for those seeking it, they exposed themselves by doing so..after getting thrown out a couple of times most are hesitant about overtly seeking it.


It's a very different outlook judging by the OP and some of the post....

The teacher explains this in the clip which is why
I posted it,,Allowing those to understand the concepts used ,

He goes into detail about how, what, and why.

would advise those watching if they can understand directly to either read the translation
or listen to what the teacher says.....

Bear in mind that the "translation" it is a translation,
meaning the translator is trying to seek the best wording according to his level of understanding....

Even he admits in some of the postings on his clip, choosing the wording to use was not easy...for some of the concepts the teacher talked about..
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:39 pm

No
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby Bao on Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:27 am

Bear in mind that the "translation" it is a translation,
meaning the translator is trying to seek the best wording according to his level of understanding....

Even he admits in some of the postings on his clip, choosing the wording to use was not easy...for some of the concepts the teacher talked about..


Chinese is a very compact and complex language. But I don’t know if it would be better if you could maintain all of the meaning. Explanations might help to lead people in the right direction, but it doesn’t help them to put and grow the knowledge in their bodies. Only actual practice and experience can.

Everyone wants to hear explanations. But that is not what they need.
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:32 am

My point exactly
It is not what they say but what they do
Errors in how the student responds shows short comings in the training
It matters little what is said
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby windwalker on Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:10 am

Interesting

Have practiced with my friend, worked with and use the same types of concepts, outlined by the "teacher" watched and felt
the same things from my own teacher with the same types of reactions.....

Everyone wants to hear explanations. But that is not what they need.


It matters little what is said



If it matter little, why say anything...

The teaches skill level is higher than the ones it's being used on....
Would not considerate it an error made by the one in the demonstration....


as to translations...

蘇東風

2 years ago (edited)
謝謝你的翻譯 讓大家能聽清楚 但有些地方 可能有誤 有些地方可能需要斟酌 [立]如秤準 [搶尖把位](意思是先佔據有利位置) 你在那邊[僵]勁 頭動腳[相隨](不是先回) [五步](不是輔助) [天雷]不是tango(天雷動喻快若天雷之動) [每遇不如意就攢勁](意思是每遇到不順他就用勁) [左重 右杳] [梢節 中節 根節] [偵查] 英文比較難翻譯 像拳論的左重左虛右重右杳等

Anthony Yap
2 years ago
谢谢师兄的纠正,哈哈哈哈!小弟听的很辛苦还叫来自中国的朋友帮忙听,的确是有很多失误之处。谢谢师兄




Commented in the "posting" on the original clip

A conversation about the use and "choice" of wording to use....Important for those not having the direct experience in order to "understand" what they'er looking at with out it.
For those with the "experience" the teachers translated explanations may accord and describe well or not...


translation from the clip

When I want to hit him it’s my YI, QI. YI, QI! YI, QI. Don't mind him, your finger... When your finger touched him, you look at your own finger. You look at your fingers and like your lips self-merging, where got so many word!


You are faster than him, besides you just use a finger. See, you always hear say a finger HIT OUT INCH POWER. Place and holding out then in, this is power point, what is INCH POWER? Touching theory.


Might be interesting to read what others make of the translations,,,what do they mean ?.

While Mr Yap's translation is good, the teacher is describing from his level ...

Some of what he talks about is outlined in

Master Wang grasped both of Wei's middle fingers by the tips, showed Wei that it would not be easy if not impossible to fajing him in this manner.

In the next instance Master Wei was thrown back, an expression of surprise on his face. He had not expected this and in his heart knew that for all his Chen style attainment he just did not have anything close to what Master Wang just demonstrated on him. So on the wrong side of fifty Master Wei set aside all that he had learned before and began to learn afresh from Master Wang.

https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/

Illustrates that even with people who have a years of experience, there are some things that are quite different requiring the physical experience
if ones practice is not based on the same methods.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:59 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby robert on Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:18 am

windwalker wrote:Might be interesting to read what others make of the translations,,,what do they mean ?.
...
While Mr Yap's translation is good, the teacher is describing from his level ...

I like Anthony's translation, but then that reflects my understanding.

Inner Three Cooperation
Heart and Mind, Mind and Qi, Qi and Strength (jin)


The character that is used is 勁 (jin) and is translated as strength. Possible meanings are strength / energy / enthusiasm / spirit / mood / expression / interest as well as stalwart / sturdy / strong / powerful.

Some people like to translate jin as energy. What I've been taught is that peng jin is a type of strength or skill. Peng jin is intentional, you have to intend it. The other jin; lu, ji, an, and so on are expressions of peng jin and again you must use intention to express peng jin as lu jin or an jin or another jin. Heart and mind and qi are all important in peng jin, but in the end they are manifested through jin. That is physical and is subject to the laws of physics.

The analogies that the guy uses are physical structures, scales that he calls a force leveling system, and also points out how it relates to the physical body - "What is shifting? Shift our body center point. Look at this when I move, What is the actual? Look. Sinking the shoulder and elbow, You see shoulder and elbow balance on the center of gravity (and he points to his belly). You still flexible... still can flexible." My opinion.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby windwalker on Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:29 am

Nice write up

The character that is used is 勁 (jin) and is translated as strength. Possible meanings are strength / energy / enthusiasm / spirit / mood / expression / interest as well as stalwart / sturdy / strong / powerful.


Would be interested in reading your thoughts on

“ fa qi” vs “ fa Jin”
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Re: Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji

Postby robert on Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:12 am

windwalker wrote:Would be interested in reading your thoughts on

“ fa qi” vs “ fa Jin”

I haven't been taught fa qi so I can't comment on it.
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