Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

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Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby greytowhite on Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:20 am

Wish I spoke more Chinese to understand it. Anyone have thoughts?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gumZJrwJiPo
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby yeniseri on Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:43 am

1. All CMA has the concept and principle of liu he ba fa (6 combination/8 methods ;D ) within them per application and otherwise
2. What is called liuhebafa today is just another type Wudang inspired putting together of x arts and stringing them like plastic pearls
3. Any liuhebafa that shows its real method is always a good thing BUT they all tend to be like Xu's (the MMA CMA fellow ;D ) ring rubber guys who just fall apart when they get hit or thrown in the ring.

They are some great books on liuhebafa (the concept and principle)!
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby Bao on Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:11 pm

yeniseri wrote:1. All CMA has the concept and principle of liu he ba fa (6 combination/8 methods ;D ) within them per application and otherwise
2. What is called liuhebafa today is just another type Wudang inspired putting together of x arts and stringing them like plastic pearls


Can’t agree really. Liuhebafa is not a “mix”. It is its own style and has in fact quite old roots. Also, its body mechanics are very detailed and it contains more useful principles and theory than most IMA schools today.

Someone though, can’t remember who, said that there are two different liuhebafa, and that the most common one is rather simplified and doesn’t have the old style’s body mechanics. I don’t really know much about the two different versions, but I understand that it can be a very good and rewarding art.
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:05 pm

Can u tell me what it has that other internals dont
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:46 pm

it contains more useful principles and theory than most IMA schools today.


Bao,

Use your word - "can't agree really". It depends on how much that IMA school has.

Liuhebafa is guided by its two writings - Five words song, and Liuhebafa song. Five words song is the general principle, and Liuhebafa song is the way to train. As mentioned in the first sentence of Liuhebafa song, it starts with the heart. Getting to know the heart, and work with the heart is a deduction process. To empty the water in the cup to start with, and then practice, practice, and practice.... following the guidance.
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby Bao on Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:31 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Can u tell me what it has that other internals dont


Can’t say it has something else that other styles have. XY, BGZ, TJQ are their own styles but contain the same principles. That could be said about LHBF as well. I don’t practice LHBF. You should ask someone who has. But the body method I have been shown reminds me about things I have studied myself. Often I feel that the common way to understand Tai Chi body method is too conservative and restricted. I appreciate a more free and full use of the body.

suckinlhbf wrote:
it contains more useful principles and theory than most IMA schools today.


Bao,
Use your word - "can't agree really". It depends on how much that IMA school has.
Liuhebafa is guided by its two writings - Five words song, and Liuhebafa song. Five words song is the general principle, and Liuhebafa song is the way to train. As mentioned in the first sentence of Liuhebafa song, it starts with the heart. Getting to know the heart, and work with the heart is a deduction process. To empty the water in the cup to start with, and then practice, practice, and practice.... following the guidance.


心意本無法, I like this short poem or statement very much. Deep. I don’t know exactly how you interpret this one, but from what I understand, and IMO, it should be a general guidance for all IMA practitioners.

But to reach the formless or methodless you first need a method or a shape. LHBF has its own form and exercises, they have clear methods and they are NOT a mix of the other IMA styles. The LHBF form is not a mix based on an Old Shaolin form mixed with local arts.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:17 pm

Bao wrote:心意本無法, I like this short poem or statement very much. Deep. I don’t know exactly how you interpret this one, but from what I understand, and IMO, it should be a general guidance for all IMA practitioners.

But to reach the formless or methodless you first need a method or a shape. LHBF has its own form and exercises, they have clear methods and they are NOT a mix of the other IMA styles. The LHBF form is not a mix based on an Old Shaolin form mixed with local arts.


Care to translate?
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby Bao on Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:34 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Care to translate?


sure

心意本無法 (xin yi ben wu fa)

心 - mind, "heart-mind"
意 - intent, idea
本 - origin, source, root, stem
無 - Nothing, nothingness, no,
法 - method, rule set

Remember that classical Chinese is very compact and rich in meaning.

And also remember that i don't practice LHBF. But I think that any personal interpretation is good enough.
So I would translate it as something like this:

"xin/yi" is the source of "wu fa" or
"Heart-mind together with intent is the source of no-method".

And I would interpret the meaning as something that you should strive for, a state or a level, where methods or rule sets no longer have any meaning, and that this is accomplished by studying or practicing to use the "heart-mind" and yi.

Of course, that you must use "xin" and "yi" when you study martial arts is a very common saying, but the goal seems to reach a level of the mind, or a "mind- and heart-state", which contain all of the methods naturally. I interpret this as acting from freedom and spontaneity without the boundaries of rules and methods.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:43 pm

how you interpret this one


My interpretation at this moment is:-
心意本無法 - We cannot get Heart & Intent by using any method.
有法是虛無 - If we really need a method, the method is emptiness.
The ZEN temple focus on finding one's own heart through mindfulness to bring out one's intuition. Through the feeling in the details of everything (include movements) happens around, it arouses a deeper and deeper awareness. The awareness leads where the one to go. LHBF starts from finding the awareness, train the awareness, and go with the awareness.

LHBF has its own form and exercises, they have clear methods

要學心意功,先從八法起. It is from the five words song. The eight principles (八法) together with the proper execution of forms are the path to the gate of LHBF. The methods are embedded in the two writings. The form is a vehicle to achieve the formless and methodless. And doing everything with heart.
Last edited by suckinlhbf on Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby chinwoo1956 on Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:07 am

Hi

Here is what my teachers told me about the history and origins of Liuhebafa.

Wu Yihui and his good friend Wang Xiangzhai both masters in there own arts produced the from and its fighting methods.

Wu Yihui taught the public form openly and Wang Xiangzhai taught its fighting principle in his art Dachengquan and they kept them separate, only very few people knew the truth.

If you look at the content of the form you will see elements of Dachengquan standing and Fa Jing training and also moves from Lu Hong Ba Shi that shouldn’t be there if Liuhebafa is an original art.

There always seems to be a lot of chat about theory and not much about the practical skills, fighting applications and methods in the art.

Any clips would be interesting !!!!
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:52 am

Here is what my teachers told me about the history and origins of Liuhebafa.

Wu Yihui and his good friend Wang Xiangzhai both masters in there own arts produced the from and its fighting methods.

Wu Yihui taught the public form openly and Wang Xiangzhai taught its fighting principle in his art Dachengquan and they kept them separate, only very few people knew the truth.

If you look at the content of the form you will see elements of Dachengquan standing and Fa Jing training and also moves from Lu Hong Ba Shi that shouldn’t be there if Liuhebafa is an original art.

There always seems to be a lot of chat about theory and not much about the practical skills, fighting applications and methods in the art.

Any clips would be interesting !!!!


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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:00 pm

I thought it went back a lot further than that to a Taoist who.s name slips my memory
He is also credited with creating the Ba Tuan Chin and Tai Chi Ruler
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby Bao on Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:14 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I thought it went back a lot further than that to a Taoist who.s name slips my memory
He is also credited with creating the Ba Tuan Chin and Tai Chi Ruler


Yes, the Song Dynasty Taoist priest or sage Chen Tuan. That is from the same time as the original form was invented or had its finished shape. All Shaolin, Old Shaolin and the Chang Chuan styles today mistakenly called Shaolin, were derived more from Taoism than Buddhism.
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:57 pm

Taoism was originated from China from the beginning of Chinese history. Buddhism came later. Song Dynasty was the time that some teachers combine Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucius into one. Then, it split again later. Too much gossips and controversies in Liuhebafa. I don't give a F.... Just enjoy what we are doing.
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Re: Cliff Lok Liuhebafa Documentary

Postby Bao on Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:27 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:. Song Dynasty was the time that some teachers combine Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucius into one. Then, it split again later.


Everything was mixed, before and later. Chinese thought and religion was “A big pool of ideas” as someone said. Buddhism and Daoism mixed up as soon as Buddhism reached China. Philosophy and religion was actually also mixed up in the Song Dynasty. At a times when the emperor had problems, within a few days, Zhu Xi participated in Daoist ceremonies, prayed in a Buddhist temple and payed his respect to Confucius before Confucian altar. People believe that he was only a philosophical thinker, but religion was very important, even for the big thinkers.

This is also why there is no pure Buddhist martial arts in China. They are all results from this mixed bag of thought, or the big pool of ideas.
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