the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

What do people think of this https://youtu.be/WokLYOPfd10

It seems like a clear framework for testing/practice. It seems like everyone was clear on the criteria, as well. So, from that standpoint, I liked it. I don't know anything about Huang's tai chi, so I can only assume that it's reflective of the ideals of that style.

I hate it. I don’t think any explanation is even necessary.

I have no idea what kind of Tai Chi skill this would prove. Let them enter sanda competitions instead. That is what Tai Chi practitioners did before the push hands competitions became popular in the 80s.

Didn't spend much time with the video cause it's a competition and I'm not interested in those.

But, I've gotten a lot out of practicing push hands in this stance. And also in the v / figure-8 stance.

I got really excited when I was first introduced to them since I was momentarily hopeful tat the smaller stance would reduce the use of crude force and make people focus more on tai chi skills. I was quickly shown that people will fall back on force in any situation, stance be damned... That said, I find they help me notice places where I'm bracing or forcing.

I sometimes take one of these stances when pushing w/ someone in a normal stance: e.g. take half-horse/goat when pushing w/ someone in bow stance, take v/8 when pushing w/ someone in half-horse/goat.

Speaking solely for myself, I would never engage anyone for actual fighting in a double weighted, frontal mabu stance like that, so I don't see any value in using it for tui-shou practice or competition.

Whether a position is double-weighted it or not.

Depends a lot on level and practice of a person, how or what the terminology means in their practice.

In-itself can be confusing, as it could also reference mind and body at the same point.

ie double heavy, and double light...both to be avoided

The stance referenced, one can use this and not have their weight on both feet...kind of an advantage

As its not obvious...the change / alignment is inside

One of the things it can promote, an understanding of change, with out moving ones outer position.

touched on a little bit here

I got really excited when I was first introduced to them since I was momentarily hopeful tat the smaller stance would reduce the use of crude force and make people focus more on tai chi skills. I was quickly shown that people will fall back on force in any situation, stance be damned... That said, I find they help me notice places where I'm bracing or forcing.

No one can change another person, all one can change is themselves.

A problem for those testing with others "above" their abilities
or practicing with those not understanding the point of the practice.
Expecting them to either understand or change.

Unlike the Manchurian patrons during an earlier age, these wealthy merchants and politicians tend to be of middle age, otherwise inactive, used to life of luxury and comfort. They tend to be very overweight, and quite a few indulged in opium.

They were not martial art material to say the least.
During push hands, they have poor awareness of their own center, and tend to lean forward too much during advances.

It was young Master Wang’s job to prevent them from falling in such circumstances. Similarly, he need to very precise in his own attacks so these clients won’t get thrown down to the ground.

Master Wang looked to this not as a drudgery, but an opportunity to refine his skill: here has this heavy weight he needs to carefully control at all times, he has to follow the opponent, make him think he’s doing well, he needs to do his own skill, but beat the opponent without hurting him or cause any discomfort.

Imagining getting a job at New York’s Museum of Modern Art moving around the marble statues in the Greeco-Roman Gallery everyday, it would be something like that.

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif

Depending on skill level and awareness it can be beneficial, or not.

The practice can allow one to win an event but lose in understanding taiji depending the goal.
Not fan of competitive push hands,,for others it might be a way to enter into the practice of taiji and question their own assumptions about what their practice is for..

Either way, it's their practice...

The goat riding stance looks like a disadvantage to the bow and arrow
However it is a cheat like sitting down
Once you neutralise you are I the superior position

There was a guy in the park in Austin that insisted on playing like this, I always matched him. Was good training.

I'm opposed to push hands as a competition as a general rule, though.

wayne hansen wrote:The goat riding stance looks like a disadvantage to the bow and arrow
However it is a cheat like sitting down
Once you neutralise you are in the superior position

Agreed that it absolutely can be a superior position if you "sit down" in it. But IMO, you should face your opponent from an angle, oblique or whatever you call it. I am not convinced by this facing your opponent parallell thing and I can't see much value in this type of PH.

Once you neutralise, sure. But if you can is another question. Your ability to change is limited so you will have very little margin to neutralise a push. I see this as becoming a game of who can be the fastest. Just keep on pushing as fast as you can will remaining firm in the ground, and very few will be able to neutralise what you do.

This game is way too limited for my own taste. and as said above, PH should not be competition. It's for practice.

I think it's an interesting game you can play. It teaches you a lot about the value of not being double weighted.

Many years ago I did a workshop with Ren Guangyi and he started it with an exercise similar to this. Standing a little farther apart than the video above with palms pushing each other like patty-cakes. I think there's a lot that can be learned from it and if done over years I think it would be interesting to see how one improves as they loosen and relax. Not something I would spend much time on though. My opinion.

Bao once you neutralise you are in the bow stance and he is in the parallel stance
It is like pushing a kitten off a fence

wayne hansen wrote:Bao once you neutralise you are in the bow stance and he is in the parallel stance
It is like pushing a kitten off a fence

Are you suggesting you are neutralizing by moving your feet, or are you saying that being single weighted in a parallel stance is functionally equivalent to a bow stance?

wayne hansen wrote:Bao once you neutralise you are in the bow stance and he is in the parallel stance
It is like pushing a kitten off a fence

Ok then I understand what you meant, I totally misunderstood. I was looking at it with the op clip in mind. In that game, both keep their feet parallel, no one is allowed to move into a bow stance.

When you push across your opponent you are in a bow stance a small one but one just the same
Huang would take the goat rider and his student the bow
If you go thru the whole clip I am sure they do this as well
When I first saw Huang doing this I replicated with my students
I was surprised what an advantage it gave me
My students attack with vigour and defend their attack
The reason I posted this clip is because it shows up all the mistakes people make in all sorts of pushing
I was hoping to get some detailed analysis
I quite like the grid they use and can see it has merit
All pushing is competition or it is of no use
It is not about ego but testing like a living Zen Koan
It is not ego based when the Roshie enquires as to your understanding