The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby Formosa Neijia on Fri Dec 31, 2021 9:39 am


this is what the live blade sparring looks like in pekiti-tersia. I had to do this with Tim to graduate from his instructor camp. It's a very misunderstood sparring practice that really has to be felt. I've never seen any equivalent of this in xingyi or any other kungfu system.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:49 am

A good friend of mine is a guru in pekiti-tirsia, and was a national level fencer. He also likes tcc.:) I think hubud-lubud teaches a lot about flow, which I think is useful in phs. There is a kind of softness that's hard to explain.

Anyway, this thread is about jian. I'd say kali spada is more akin to using a dao or sabre/long knife. I don't know xy jian.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:03 am

Yes the Itak is more like a cut down broadsword
Edgar Sulite who I trained with trained both systems mentioned
A lot of the live stuff is done with lots of different blades
Edgar was also a hsing I and tai chi practitioner
He did a lot of Standing
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby jaime_g on Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:05 am

These are drills with sharps. They can be really interesting and deep, but that's not sparring.

Sparring with sharp blades means someone is going to bleed badly, lose fingers or and eye or that the sparring is heavily conditioned, forbiden targets and all that.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby Formosa Neijia on Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:07 pm

jaime_g wrote:These are drills with sharps. They can be really interesting and deep, but that's not sparring.


The video I posted is real sparring and we did hours of it. It's free-form, not choreographed, and the blade that Tim Waid held was razor sharp. Again, people don't understand what they're looking at because they have never done it. And that's fine. But in general, I try to stick to commenting on things I've actually done.

As for xingyi jian, I dislike the traditional five elements practice with the jian as it doesn't really teach the basics of the straight sword. It's more about xingyi than about the jian and I'm always against that. I always prefer to start from real usage of the weapon and go from there. Learning how to really use the weapons is more historically accurate, immediately usable, and compliments any style you're doing rather than trying to express a style through a given weapon as there is little historical evidence that each kungfu system had distinct fighting styles with weapons.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:22 pm

I agree about weapons not being historically linked with unarmed systems, but there was no sparring whatsoever in that clip. Free-form, understandably slow-motion drilling sure, but no sparring. Actual sparring with sharp blades would be idiotic and teaching it would be irresponsible at best. There are plenty of training weapons and safety gear that, when combined with drilling, can prepare one, as well as is possible, for a weapons fight. Anyone that hasn't trained against a fully-resisting opponent and claims legitimate skill is kidding themselves and misleading others...

And before anyone starts spouting more bullshit, I have done full contact dagger sparring with slightly blunt wooden weapons and it hurt like a mother fucker and could have lead to severe injuries, but was worth it for my personal training. Certainly inadvisable to others..
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby Bhassler on Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:36 pm

Meh. Anyone who hasn't been in actual fights (as in multiple) with actual weapons should probably be giving some pretty strong disclaimers as far as what they think they're teaching, anyways.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby jaime_g on Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:49 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:
jaime_g wrote:These are drills with sharps. They can be really interesting and deep, but that's not sparring.


The video I posted is real sparring and we did hours of it. It's free-form, not choreographed, and the blade that Tim Waid held was razor sharp. Again, people don't understand what they're looking at because they have never done it. And that's fine. But in general, I try to stick to commenting on things I've actually done.



We certaintly have very different definitions of what is a real sparring. Speaking from 15 years of HEMA perspective, that's not sparring.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:57 pm

I've never been in a sword fight or even seen one. :) Afa weapons, we'd start with sharp ones to learn two person drills -and that a spada is not a stick. We'd "spar," however, with sticks. The difference is that the intent was to hit, but by this time defense skills have been honed.

Anyway, I'd expect that a sword fight for life wouldn't look like sparring, more like a Dog Brothers session. I tend to agree that jian is jian, and there are only so many techniques. Body methods may differ and jians may differ.

I think I'd prefer a dao in a melee, though.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:00 pm

Jaime_g, what do you think of this sabre duel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkYjdPCyYjk
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:55 pm

Bhassler wrote:Meh. Anyone who hasn't been in actual fights (as in multiple) with actual weapons should probably be giving some pretty strong disclaimers as far as what they think they're teaching, anyways.

That reduces the 'talent pool' quite a bit! ;D

My Master qualifies, but I thankfully don't.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:58 pm

Steve James wrote:Jaime_g, what do you think of this sabre duel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkYjdPCyYjk

I agree with the title. Pretty realistic, as far as duels in films go. Also watch The Duelists. Lots of realistic duels in that one and a good film to boot!

I think that some people wouldn't understand what sparring is if it punched them in the face. I respect HEMA. There are a lot of parallels with what I was taught in China. I've been in thousands of bouts. Many things can only be properly learned in sparring, whether armed or unarmed.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:30 pm

Tâtang Illustrisimo had numerous fights to the death
That doesn’t mean that someone dies every time but it has happened
He still had all the skills In his eighties up to his death
Thé PT stuff above is all out of range so not really sparring
Of course they are not trying to kill in live sparring but work with a live blade can produce blood
Sparring with sticks and protective produces false courage
Quite different to when you face a live blade
It is a game that can give some skills but a game just the same
Last edited by wayne hansen on Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby Michael Babin on Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:46 pm

I have never used a metal blade for sparring of any kind -- so perhaps I shouldn't comment. On the other hand, I have done hundreds of hours in the last 15 years using a variety of wooden and plastic "wasters" as well as foam-padded Chinese style swords and broadswords. I also used protective gear for some of that sparring time and always eye protection. The biggest lesson was and is that the best teacher is pain... but pain has to be managed when you are doing this stuff as a hobby and not because you are training to go to war three months forward.

In the end, skill comes from practise with good instruction in the basics of the particular weapon, experience with choreographed two person drills and then tons of free-style practise at a variety of intensities and with a variety of skilful partners. But, again, the real teacher, in some ways, is the bruising to the knuckles and wrists and forearms, the occasional stab with a blunt weapon and picking long splinters of wood out of you flesh when shitty wasters start to shred from the constant contact.

Best compliment I ever had from a visiting Yang style expert at my old studio was "I like how the wooden swords in the racks here look worn and used. In most places I visit they always look brand new as if they were never used for anything except solo form".

As with empty-hand, if the training is too safe, no one learns anything of value in fighting terms; if the training is too brutal, a few will learn quickly and the rest will get hurt and discouraged. Finding the balance in martial "play" is never easy...
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Re: The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

Postby wushutiger on Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:22 am

As for xingyi jian, I dislike the traditional five elements practice with the jian as it doesn't really teach the basics of the straight sword. It's more about xingyi than about the jian and I'm always against that.


Not sure how you were taught the five elements, but this right here displays 3 of the 5 in use and very much in line with how tsome aspects were taught to me

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Last edited by wushutiger on Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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