The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

[C.J.W.]

In a CCTV documentary series that came out about a year ago, one of the episodes includes a short segment -- starting at around 16:00 -- in which an 83-year-old master of Chuojiao Fanzi demonstrates techniques from a two-man sabre set that he learned from his teacher over 60 years ago.

Interestingly enough, the techniques actually resemble those found in Filipino arts. (I especially like the variation on the inside entry at 16: 35 where he ducks under the attacker's arm and makes a nasty cut as he moves through.)

[GrahamB]

I believe Arthur shows correct form and proper technique on this valuable pre-internet instructional:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs

[MaartenSFS]

In a CCTV documentary series that came out about a year ago, one of the episodes includes a short segment -- starting at around 16:00 -- in which an 83-year-old master of Chuojiao Fanzi demonstrates techniques from a two-man sabre set that he learned from his teacher over 60 years ago.

Interestingly enough, the techniques actually resemble those found in Filipino arts. (I especially like the variation on the inside entry at 16: 35 where he ducks under the attacker's arm and makes a nasty cut as he moves through.)

Very similar to the high level stuff I was taught. Very difficult to use against a fully resisting opponent. I think that my main gripe with Taiji and FMA is that high level stuff is overemphasised at the expense of the basics that are used 90% of the time, like proper distance, timing, footwork, et cetera.

[Bhassler]

I believe Arthur shows correct form and proper technique on this valuable pre-internet instructional:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs

That's what I mean by real combat. I'd learn from that guy, any day.

[GrahamB]

I believe Arthur shows correct form and proper technique on this valuable pre-internet instructional:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs

That's what I mean by real combat. I'd learn from that guy, any day.

All 5 elements on display - pi, pao, beng, zuan and plenty of heng.

[Formosa Neijia]

this is what the live blade sparring looks like in pekiti-tersia. I had to do this with Tim to graduate from his instructor camp. It's a very misunderstood sparring practice that really has to be felt. I've never seen any equivalent of this in xingyi or any other kungfu system.

I'll quote myself as part of a partial explanation of what's happening in the clip and it's relevance to xingyi sword work. This is distance sparring because IT'S BEING DONE WITH LIVE BLADES. Criticizing it based on the fact that they are initially out of range is exactly missing the point -- the point is to stay out of range of your opponents weapon while maneuvering him into position of YOUR weapon. You want to cut him without him being able to cut you. Only once an opening has been found do you exploit it and move in as happens at :43 and 1:02 in the clip.

What does this have to do with xingyi? The is jin-tui 進退 in action. Notice the back and forth movement -- this is advance and retreat, obviously important concepts in any MA but xingyi actually has sets named after this concept so it's vitally important. Combine jin-tui with the 7-star stepping pattern 七星步 found in paoquan, tiger, etc. and you wind up with an entire footwork system than can be endlessly elaborated.

The reason i said I've never seen this done this way in xingyi or anywhere else was no one I knew in CMA was willing to train weapons this seriously and it stunned me to see that PTK already had the concepts under different names and they trained it from day one. I was taught the concepts and basics of this in xingyi but in order to flesh it out, i had to seek out FMA people.

We do have other sparring methods such as Dog Brothers style headgear/gloves sparring like you see in HEMA but as has already been stated, the armor (while necessary) gives a false sense of security and allows people to rush in ridiculously like you see in some FMA tourneys. It can create bad habits that distance sparring with trainers (but without armor) then with live blades can help fix.

[MaartenSFS]

That's why there needs to be a fine line between how much protection the equipment provides versus how much pain is felt. I believe that the equipment should only prevent injury.

[C.J.W.]

In a CCTV documentary series that came out about a year ago, one of the episodes includes a short segment -- starting at around 16:00 -- in which an 83-year-old master of Chuojiao Fanzi demonstrates techniques from a two-man sabre set that he learned from his teacher over 60 years ago.

Interestingly enough, the techniques actually resemble those found in Filipino arts. (I especially like the variation on the inside entry at 16: 35 where he ducks under the attacker's arm and makes a nasty cut as he moves through.)

Very similar to the high level stuff I was taught. Very difficult to use against a fully resisting opponent. I think that my main gripe with Taiji and FMA is that high level stuff is overemphasised at the expense of the basics that are used 90% of the time, like proper distance, timing, footwork, et cetera.

Agreed.

I posted it mainly to show that two-man weapon drills and functional applications similar to those found in FMA do (or did) exist in TCMA. But sadly, as is often the case with TCMA, this type of material is always taught behind closed doors and only made available to a small number of practitioners, leaving the uninitiated with nothing but fancy-looking forms.

[wayne hansen]

Sword

There is nothing wrong with the way they are training in that clip but it is not live weapon sparring
Take a look at Tatang
No fancy moving about
He is still the enemy moves and he moves before him
Thé most subtle of angles,watch him use la pluma
Cinco teros is great training and uses all the hsing I cuts
I have 5 different ones
Peleece peleece is similar
Have a look at some of this

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAOY ... _V8hcIdwuZ

[MaartenSFS]

In a CCTV documentary series that came out about a year ago, one of the episodes includes a short segment -- starting at around 16:00 -- in which an 83-year-old master of Chuojiao Fanzi demonstrates techniques from a two-man sabre set that he learned from his teacher over 60 years ago.

Interestingly enough, the techniques actually resemble those found in Filipino arts. (I especially like the variation on the inside entry at 16: 35 where he ducks under the attacker's arm and makes a nasty cut as he moves through.)

Very similar to the high level stuff I was taught. Very difficult to use against a fully resisting opponent. I think that my main gripe with Taiji and FMA is that high level stuff is overemphasised at the expense of the basics that are used 90% of the time, like proper distance, timing, footwork, et cetera.

Agreed.

I posted it mainly to show that two-man weapon drills and functional applications similar to those found in FMA do (or did) exist in TCMA. But sadly, as is often the case with TCMA, this type of material is always taught behind closed doors and only made available to a small number of practitioners, leaving the uninitiated with nothing but fancy-looking forms.

You are right. Of all of the dozens of masters that I met in China, only my Master was generous with his knowledge, both theoretical and practical. Unfortunately, most so-called masters in China are already a generation or more removed from those that could use their arts..

I have seen and experienced so many demos and drills that I am numb to them and am only interested in watching or feeling the skills in sparring/fencing. It validates or invalidates everything else that they put out.

[MaartenSFS]

Sword

There is nothing wrong with the way they are training in that clip but it is not live weapon sparring
Take a look at Tatang
No fancy moving about
He is still the enemy moves and he moves before him
Thé most subtle of angles,watch him use la pluma
Cinco teros is great training and uses all the hsing I cuts
I have 5 different ones
Peleece peleece is similar
Have a look at some of this

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAOY ... _V8hcIdwuZ

As long as they don't claim that it is sparring I take no issue. I only watched the first sparring clip and it reminded me of a problem with sparring rules. Point sparring only works with edged or point weapons. Sticks are in this grey area between unarmed sparring and sharp weapons. I suppose that, like unarmed fighting, a number of blows could be traded, but it is so hard to judge what would be effective or not when also wearing a lot of protective gear, which is necessary. With sharp weapons, especially thrusting weapons, it is much clearer.