The Xingyi Jian (Straight Sword) 形意剑法

[LaoDan]

Byron,
I am hoping that you might be willing to clarify questions that I have about the five elements Xingyi jian techniques. I learned a simple sparring drill that cycles through the five elements, but when I learned it I did not realize that it came from XY (I only discovered that through the power of internet videos!). While the techniques for fire (pao/exploding - rising), earth (heng/crossing - side to side), and metal (pi/splitting - falling) seem fairly straightforward, both water (zuan/drilling) and wood (beng/crushing) are performed as thrusts (to the shoulder and stomach respectively). I do not understand what qualities differentiate these two techniques. Could you explain them to me? The following video is the form that I learned, and is done fairly closely to how I practice it (with minor differences since I practice TJ rather than XY):

[GrahamB]

Hey, that's me! wtf?

[LaoDan]

Fabulous! Could you explain the differences between the two thrusts?

[GrahamB]

Certainly.

First - background. You must remember that there is no difference in Xing Yi between sword methods and barehand methods. This is entirely unlike Taijiquan. This is because in Xing Yi the weapons methods came first. That may be a contentious statement for some, but there is solid historical evidence to back it up. (See my podcast series on the history of Xing Yi, currently up to episode 13).

So, based on that logic, there is no difference between a Zuan Chuan with a sword, and a Zuan Chuan with a fist.

So - just look at the two empty hand methods - what's different between a Beng Chuan and Zuan Chuan?

Zuan contains a spiralling energy - "Drilling", (the first spirals inwards) Beng does not - Beng punches straight forward like an arrow released form a bow. Zuan is usually done in a diagonal upwards direction, Beng is usually done straight forward.

Hope that helps.

G

P.S. I'm aiming my sword in Zuan at the bit of their neck under their chin (where the armor is weak), not the shoulder (where the armor is strong).

P.P.S Hadn't seen that clip in years. It was a blast from the past! Thanks for that.

[windwalker]

Very interesting Chinese swordsmanship.

Transitions from training to application and usage very clear, among those who actively
compete "sparring" in their practices.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf7rFnb0cdI&t=419s

Some work from a fellow RSF member…who specializes in Chinese swordsmen ship…

Originally from Holland, Maarten (Maahrtun) Sebastiaan Franks Spijker arrived in China in 2005 at 18 years of age to study Gongfu. After struggling to find authentic traditional arts for many years (but studying Sanda and exploring the country in the meantime), he eventually became a disciple of Zou Jianhua (邹建华), a Baguazhang and Xinyiliuhequan (amongst other arts) master.

https://maartensfs.wixsite.com/shanzhaimen

Aside from a CMA practitioner
a photographer with an interesting eye, persevering some of China's cultural past

[wushutiger]

I am hoping that you might be willing to clarify questions that I have about the five elements Xingyi jian techniques. I learned a simple sparring drill that cycles through the five elements, but when I learned it I did not realize that it came from XY (I only discovered that through the power of internet videos!). While the techniques for fire (pao/exploding - rising), earth (heng/crossing - side to side), and metal (pi/splitting - falling) seem fairly straightforward, both water (zuan/drilling) and wood (beng/crushing) are performed as thrusts (to the shoulder and stomach respectively). I do not understand what qualities differentiate these two techniques. Could you explain them to me? The following video is the form that I learned, and is done fairly closely to how I practice it (with minor differences since I practice TJ rather than XY):

Would be interesting to see what set you are referring to directly.

Regarding Zuan, Graham has done a solid explaining the basic core of the method. With the weapons, Zuan (in general) features two directions for us, one being upwards/forwards and one being down/forwards, both being somewhat diagonal. The methods exist from this in the bare hands as well, with the two hands manifesting the directions respectively (this is a whole other discussion though). As Graham stated, the key in both is the coiling, which enables one to more efficiently "seek the center". The preceding techniques to each thrust vary, there are few key methods, but these aim to enable you to enter with zuan in various ways addressing various situations.

Nice vid Graham!

[MaartenSFS]

Thanks for the kind words Windwalker!

[GrahamB]

Well. this is all very convivial isn't it? Merry Christmas all, a time of peace on RSF!

[LaoDan]

Thanks Graham & Byron, I am interested in information like that. Since I practice some weapons forms and drills that come from, or are practiced by, styles other than Taiji, I do like to hear about differences, which I view as also being probably correct, just stylistically different emphases. On that note, while I occasionally hear about vulnerable locations for armored opponents, TJ rarely mentions this for their forms (in my experience; others may have had different instruction). Perhaps this is due to these weapons forms being developed later, after the wearing of armor became uncommon. But XY seems to keep the emphasis on attacking an armored opponent. Perhaps this is due to the weapons forms and techniques being older, from a period when the wearing of armor was more common. In addition to the five element sword drill from XY, I have learned a saber form (with the first and third sections matching into a paired form) from 12 animal XY called Sanhedao (three harmony saber), where the teacher still mentions parts that should be visualized as attacking an opponent on horseback. While learning the differences between TJ and XY approaches to the same or similar material may not really be important for me (since I only practice TJ, rather than both TJ and XY), I do find it to be interesting, and I want my understanding of weapons usage to be broader than just the TJ perspective. Any additional thoughts from those like you who specialize in XY (or other styles), are greatly appreciated by me.

[wayne hansen]

I always find the armour thing a bit of a joke
Saying that the yang broadsword san shou seems to follow that pattern
The reason I learnt Kali was I knew it was still active
I thought tai chi weapons were in the past
To my joy I found out how well they measured up
My first kali teacher soon became my student and still is
My kali teachers trained with live blades and I feel any sparring without live blades is a bit of a joke
Those knives that give you an electric shot are a good replacement
Saying that when you are cut in a real fight you seldom feel it

[MaartenSFS]

Sharp blades at full speed and power??

[Doc Stier]

Sharp blades at full speed and power??

C'mon, Maarten! Get with the program, man. What could possibly go wrong with that? Lol

[MaartenSFS]

I'm imagining the Matrix, without the leather and soundtrack! =P

Also, cutting is largely ineffective (with a dagger/knife), especially if it's not a main artery along the neck. By the time they bleed out they could stab you dozens of times!

[Steve James]

I couldn't agree more with using kali. Afa live blade work, traditionally, that's where one starts. But, it's not live blade "sparring," yet. I also think there are many useful principles that are universal with or without a blade. Anyway, here's an old example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aADSQ-Ik0KI

[wayne hansen]

Yes Tatang is the lineage I am referring to