Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Bhassler on Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:14 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote: you're shown yourself to be totally impervious to logic and reason.


Well, as far as I can tell, only one of us is ignoring the other person's points and resorting to ad hominem attack, so there's that...
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:23 pm

Anyone who doesn’t think pushing is a main component has never learnt from someone with real skill who knows the bridge between pushing and fighting and can show it in both realms
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:22 pm

Guys - I think you need to realise that all these Chen forms you are arguing so passionately about look.... virtually identical.

It's like Catholics and Protestants in the Middle Ages burning each other to death over who is worshiping God the right way. If an Alien landed on earth and tried to get them to explain what the differences between the two ways of worshiping God were.... to him they would be virtually identical.

It's all the same thing! Be more Alien!

;D

And look what you've done now - you've woken Wayne up!!!!
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Bhassler on Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:30 pm

GrahamB wrote:Guys - I think you need to realise that all these Chen forms you are arguing so passionately about look.... virtually identical.

It's like Catholics and Protestants in the Middle Ages burning each other to death over who is worshiping God the right way. If an Alien landed on earth and tried to get them to explain what the differences between the two ways of worshiping God were.... to him they would be virtually identical.

It's all the same thing! Be more Alien!

;D

And look what you've done now - you've woken Wayne up!!!!


Well, Tae Bo and Muay Thai look... virtually identical, to anyone who doesn't know what they're looking at. That doesn't mean they should be written off to space aliens as the same thing. Of course if the space aliens have advanced technology and ray guns and stuff, then functionally Tae Bo and Muay Thai probably are about the same. But still, it's the internet, and it's important to win.

To be perfectly clear, though, I'm not arguing about Chen forms, I'm arguing about arguing. I'm still a little confused what other people are arguing about. I try to leave well enough alone, but I have this deep seated fear that once things go beyond a certain point, if outrageous claims go unchallenged, we are all left a little dumber for having read them.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby nicklinjm on Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:17 pm

I'm not a Chen style guy, and am totally agnostic about laojia vs xinjia but think there are a few points that might help this thread get back on topic:

1) It's pretty clear from several different sources that Chen tuishou methods were relatively simple back in CFK's time. Not just the Xiang Kai-ran article but also writings of Hong Junsheng and other early students of CFK like Yang Yichen say the same thing, that there were only a couple of main tuishou methods, definitely not 5 or even 9 as found in some modern Chen branches. In Wu style it's pretty well known that a lot of the tuishou methods were elaborated by the 2nd generation, i.e. Wu Jianquan along with Wang Maozhai.
2) Looking at videos it's also pretty clear that the shenfa of the early students of CFK is much 'simpler', with fewer [overt] circles, and closer to Chen family members who were not influenced by Xinjia, such as Chen Qingzhou and Chen Quanzhong.

I have difficulty understanding practitioners who only practice forms who then try and assert that their material is 'best' or most 'authentic'. The primary purpose of these arts was for martial usage - regardless of whether you are practicing old frame, new frame or small frame, surely the main criterion to skill in taiji is whether you can show how the movements work in actual usage??
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:05 pm

nicklinjm wrote:I have difficulty understanding practitioners who only practice forms who then try and assert that their material is 'best' or most 'authentic'. The primary purpose of these arts was for martial usage - regardless of whether you are practicing old frame, new frame or small frame, surely the main criterion to skill in taiji is whether you can show how the movements work in actual usage??

Perhaps that was true way back when, but most current professional teachers of any or all frames promote a business model based primarily upon teaching students forms performance, not form fighting applications. This is their treasured and carefully guarded 'rice bowl'.

As such, the more forms they can teach and the more correction and refinement detail they can add to every form, the easier it is to maintain long-term students and, thus, the continued income derived from them. A seriously devoted student of such teachers could easily spend many years and a large sum of money learning and refining the forms curriculum without ever developing any realistic or effective fighting skill.

They would only acquire an impressive resume of having learned the style's forms from name famed teachers, while hopefully also acquiring the ability to perform the sets beautifully, perhaps for tournament competition, or to teach others as they themselves were taught in order to create their own 'rice bowl'. :-\
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:45 pm

"The primary purpose of these arts was for martial usage... "

Was it originally? Perhaps they originally also had other purposes too....

"Western enthusiasts often feel impelled to strip away these religious trappings and construct a version of the martial arts that is neither simple gymnastics nor religion, but emphasizes true hand-to-hand combat skills. The question remains, is this an authentic understanding of the martial arts?" - Holcombe 1990.


"Religious" here doesn't mean the same as religious means in the West (i.e. going to church, reading a book, believing things, etc). It was more ritual-based. In the Ching Dynasty, China was a religious state - farming followed a calendar of religious festivals at which there were performances. Martial performances fighting demons, etc. I’m not saying this is the origin, of course! But this is the culture from which the Chinese martial arts emerged.

Anyway, back to Chen, sorry to derail.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:06 am

In my experience spanning 60+ years to date, there has always been a connection between traditional Chinese martial arts and ritual ceremonial practices. Virtually every Chinese master I have learned from had a shrine or altar in a prominent place within their school or training hall. Classes began and ended with salutations before the shrine, and the teachers performed weekly rituals in which fruits and other food items, as well as wine or tea were placed on the altar, along with the lighting of altar candles and incense sticks before each class.

This was typically the norm in most schools, regardless of the style or system, especially among southern Chinese masters. So commonly seen in fact that it seemed suspect to visit any teacher who didn't maintain a shrine altar in their school training hall. Part of the instruction I received as preparation for a teaching certificate was specifically related to performing the traditional ceremonial rites. It has only been in the last 25-30 years time that such practices have become less commonly encountered. :-\
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby windwalker on Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:58 am

This was typically the norm in most schools, regardless of the style or system, especially among southern Chinese masters.


Image

History regarding the distinction of styles under the umbrella of taiji.

Master Chen’s answer had nothing to do with either Chen or Wu styles: My ancestors invented it.

My great grandfather practiced it [translator’s note: This refers to Chen Changxing, who taught Yang Luchan, the creator of Yang Style]. My father practiced it.

I practice it now. . "We do not call it Taiji. We do not have a name for it. You can call it anything you want, I will still practice it the same way I was taught. I don’t care what they put in the name!

I don’t care what they put in the name!"

Chen Fake was certainly not a philosopher. However one might appreciate the profound depth of his perspective. He saw the name as nothing more than a shallow symbol of the object. What Chen Fake learned and taught was Chen Style Taijiquan. The change of the name by others or the views of others will never affect what it is.


https://practicalmethod.com/2012/02/fro ... in-a-name/

"What Chen Fake learned and taught was Chen Style Taijiquan"

An Interesting argument considering. ""We do not call it Taiji."

known at the time as "Chen style". not "Chen style taijiquan"


who was taught :)

Image

Taken all together, given the large, vibrant, and knowledgeable community, it would be impossible for the Yang’s to be teaching one set of drastically watered-down skills to the nobles – the very people who made all these growth and development possible, and teach another, more advanced set to other Han people, whom the Manchurian patrons also know equally well.



https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:30 am

There is a concerted effort in the thread to discredit DuYu-zi's material as not being martial based on my comment that Tu specializes in forms. I practiced Du's material as taught through Li Chang-ren 李章仁 via one of his disciples and they had the full range of applications, qinna, throws, and even sparring.
Throws

Sparring

Li's huleijia

As you can tell, Li has big feet, i wouldn't want to be kicked by him. :)

So although Tu does specialize in forms, the martial material is there and being developed. I will also add this it isn't unusual for teachers to do more forms training than application as they get older. Li tends to get the younger crowd that might be more interested in mixing it up.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby robert on Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:44 am

nicklinjm wrote:I'm not a Chen style guy, and am totally agnostic about laojia vs xinjia but think there are a few points that might help this thread get back on topic:

1) It's pretty clear from several different sources that Chen tuishou methods were relatively simple back in CFK's time. Not just the Xiang Kai-ran article but also writings of Hong Junsheng and other early students of CFK like Yang Yichen say the same thing, that there were only a couple of main tuishou methods, definitely not 5 or even 9 as found in some modern Chen branches.

Yang Dehou, Yang Yichen's brother and also a student of CFK said

Chen Fake taught taijiquan to all in the same way, with no discrimination. He never hid material. Chen Fake’s upright and honourable character was well known in Beijing. Chen Fake often said, “Even if I show someone step by step they have difficulty getting it exactly right, what reason is there to be conservative?” He would answer every question, and explain each action in detail, such as Peng, Lu, Ji, An, how to use [them], and at the same time to do demonstrate physically as well, dozens of times. At that time, most taijiquan teachers in Beijing would start teaching pushing hands straight after students had learnt the form. With Chen Fake, he would teach the Yi Lu, then have the student practice Yi Lu for at least half a year before he would teach Er Lu, and would not teach push hands until later. Chen Fake said, “Pushing hands is the first step towards non-compliant practice, but the student needs to be familiar with Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Cai, Lie, Zhou, Kao and advancing and retreating, and how to use it. There is no point talking about it if a student’s gongfu has not reached the right level.

At that time, all of my brothers learned taijiquan with Chen Fake, but out of all of them only Yichen really learned well, and went to Chen Fake’s house every day. At that time, of all the early batch of Fake’s taijiquan students, my brother worked the hardest and was the best at taij. Yichen and Chen Fake are similar in character, so Chen liked him very much. I often advised Li Henian to be more like Yichen [in character].


There's no reason for CFK to require his students to know Cai, Lie, Zhou, Kao unless he was teaching dalu. FWIW.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:22 am

Love the passage above
Thé 4 supplementary techniques can be taught without Ta Lu
They are in walking 4 hands and most pushing exercises
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:00 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Love the passage above
Thé 4 supplementary techniques can be taught without Ta Lu
They are in walking 4 hands and most pushing exercises

Agreed. Those techniques are clearly present in most older form sets and are easily incorporated in free form tui-shou or san-shou training with a partner. In recent decades, very few TCC instructors even include ta-lu practices in their teaching curriculum. :-\
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:34 pm

Most that teach it leave out a couple of steps
People who ask me to teach them Ba kua I just tell them to practice ta Lu and fair lady
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Giles on Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:29 am

kenneth fish wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfy7XVSugUU

Du Yuze himself.


Irrespective of all the ins and outs of Chen lineage, and speaking as someone who has only had occasional contact and crossing hands with a few Chen practitioners (e.g. Chen village variations, Chen FaKe lineage, 'Practical Method') and nothing invested anywhere there, I think this form rendition is amazing! I've just watched it twice and still want more. Such qualities, such connections, in there. Oh to have crossed hands with this guy ('in my dreams', I know, in every respect...).
And to my eye I think I see 'under the surface' much more in common with some of my favourite video renditions of Yang und Wu styles than is usually the case with Chen style videos or live performances. Of course: "I think I see".... :P
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