Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

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Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Bob on Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:10 am

This routine is inherited by teacher Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame and was demonstrated by teacher He Hongcai. The shelf is neat and clear, suitable for beginners.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuJhQ7QrV_I



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMErD_Pvkjg





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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:33 pm

His stepping seems a bit haphazard in the yilu, almost as if he steps out, shifts his weight and falls into the foot by accident. The postures are there but the transitions between them is lacking a bit. I'm guessing his health wasn't good then possibly. His paochui appears a bit better.
Compare the stepping above to the purposeful stepping of Tu Zong-ren, one of Du's top disciples, and you'll see the difference.


Thanks for posting the guy in the third clip, i have not seen him before but his expression is close to what I learned from the Wang Meng-bi lineage. Here's his paochui, a very interesting expression.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:41 pm

Is Chen his only art
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby kenneth fish on Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:33 pm

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:30 pm

One of my Wu style teachers did an old Yang form either ban Hou or Shao Hou I can’t remember which
The way this guy moves and some of the moves remind me of this
I wonder if he is typical of his generation of Chen
If so it brings up a lot questions about Chen today
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:36 am


To me, Du's clip is the way Chen should be done. To see how modern Chen became nothing but a performance art, I suggest comparing Du's clip with this clip above. Feng Zhi-qiang's performance is especially close to Du's IMO. Older Chen in general was simpler in expression and training and there was less emphasis on doing 4-5 frames of it.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Hakkesho on Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:15 am

Hi,

I haven't been posting here for a long time but this Chen style topic is very interesting and I'll try to give you my own perspective.
I started practicing Chen style Taijiquan in Beijing in 2000, while I was studying chinese at Beijing University. My teacher was Tian Qiuxin, nephew of Tian Xiuchen. The style he taught is commonly called Chen shi taijiquan Xinjia (as opposed to Laojia or village style from Chenjiagou). There is supposed so be more silk reeling movements and somehow bigger movement than in the Laojia. The body method I was thaught is quite loose, I mean that the requirements are not so much detailed. We were taught push hands and some applications. Push hands was a big part of the training.
In 2008 I left Beijing for Taïwan where we settled down with my wife. While in Taiwan my practice was focused on the Yizong school of Luo Dexiu (Baguazhang and Xingyiquan), but after a while I started to research some Chen stylist on the island to see what was the practice like. I met several times with Tu Zongren a disciple of Du Yuze and we exchanged a bit on each other's practice. Tu Zongren curriculum is quite special since they practice Laojia (yilu and erlu), Xinjia (yilu and erlu) as well as a taolu that they call Xiaojia (small frame). To me it was weird because the body methods are quite different between Laojia and Xinjia, not to mention Xiaojia which is very different in terms of body mechanics.
I also had the chance to briefly practice under one of Pan Yongzhou's disciple but that specific way of practicing didn't really suit me. What I found interesting is the differences between Pan's practice being an early student of Chen Fake in Beijing and the way i was taught by my teacher Tian Qiuxin. The form was different but especially the body method was not the same.
Now to close the loop, I have been practicing the Chen Zhaokui (Chen Yu's father) method for a few years and I have to say that it is again very different if you compare it to the current Laojia, Xinjia or the Taiwanese branches of Chen style.
That's it I'm done, wish you all a very happy New Year 2022.

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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Bhassler on Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:25 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:
To me, Du's clip is the way Chen should be done. To see how modern Chen became nothing but a performance art, I suggest comparing Du's clip with this clip above. Feng Zhi-qiang's performance is especially close to Du's IMO. Older Chen in general was simpler in expression and training and there was less emphasis on doing 4-5 frames of it.


The woman in the clip is not Chen Yuxia. The name I heard was Jin Yilin, who was a student of Chen Yuxia.

Why do you say Feng's performance is most similar to Du's? When I look at the body movement and stance work, Feng's seems the most overtly different to Du of all of them. Just curious as to what your criteria are.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Bhassler on Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:32 am

Here's a video of someone doing Chen taiji with a lineage to Chen Yanxi that does not include Chen Fake.



Comparing videos can be interesting, but probably shouldn't be given too much weight. Among students and even formal disciples, there are better and worse representations of what was meant to be taught. Sorting out which is which really requires inside knowledge to know who was good, who practiced hard, etc.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby robert on Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:22 am

Here's another video of Wang Changjiang, he's Wang Yan's grandson. Wang Yan was a student of Chen Yanxi.

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Hakkesho on Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:44 pm

Bhassler wrote:Here's a video of someone doing Chen taiji with a lineage to Chen Yanxi that does not include Chen Fake.



Comparing videos can be interesting, but probably shouldn't be given too much weight. Among students and even formal disciples, there are better and worse representations of what was meant to be taught. Sorting out which is which really requires inside knowledge to know who was good, who practiced hard, etc.


Wang Chang Jiang has a very nice way of generating power, especially short distance power (xiao jin). Also interesting to watch another line from the village.
I agree with being cautious when comparing videos, one needs to understand where and what to look at.
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby robert on Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:47 pm

Hakkesho wrote: Also interesting to watch another line from the village.

I think so too. There are a couple small frame lineages. One is Chen Boxiang. Chen Xin -> Chen Chunyuan -> Chen Kezhong -> Chen Boxiang



Chen Zhaosen is another lineage does not come through CFK.

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Hakkesho on Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:45 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:
To me, Du's clip is the way Chen should be done. To see how modern Chen became nothing but a performance art, I suggest comparing Du's clip with this clip above. Feng Zhi-qiang's performance is especially close to Du's IMO. Older Chen in general was simpler in expression and training and there was less emphasis on doing 4-5 frames of it.


Well maybe Chen style should have been done the way Du Yuze does it but, you need to remember that he was taught by Chen Yanxi who if I recall correctly was Du's family bodyguard and I'm not sure how much and how long Du Yuze was able to study. I also have to say that the "Taiwanese" Chen style went on it's own road, without anymore exposure to China's Chen style for a long period of time. The myth that because of the Cultural revolution all good Gong Fu was lost in mainland China is far from true. Some of it has been lost but a lot of good practitioners of different martial arts continued to practice behind closed doors.
You say that "how modern Chen became nothing but a performance art", well maybe to your eyes. I agree that some of the village Chen style went on the commercial road but still, there are some very good chen guys in the village and I'm not talking about the 4 tigers. Then there's the Beijing branch which kept some really good stuff, especially the Chen Zhaokui lineage which is still alive and kicking, with a real body method that works really fine if you put the right amount of work to get it.
I remember Tu Zongren telling me that he didn't have or didn't work so much on applications but rather on multiple forms.
Just my honest and personnal opinion
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Re: Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

Postby Bob on Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:11 pm

I've always thought that the flavor and pace of Du Yu Ze's Chen's style taijiquan resemble more of a Chen Qingzhou rather than what is currently in the public now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3YqCNqq6-U



However I do think that Chen Yu's material and fajin expression are probably best I have seen over the years.
Last edited by Bob on Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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