Du Yuze from Yanxi Gong’s old frame by teacher He Hongcai

[Bob]

He Shugan, student of Hong Junsheng and Chen Fake - Chen Taijiquan Yilu, Erlu, and Chen Fake’s Yilu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2yaYEqTsL4

[from the link]

He Shugan was Hong Junsheng’s first disciple; he studied with Hong starting around 1950. In 1955, he went to Beijing University. He took a letter of introduction and paid respect to Hong’s teacher, Chen Fake who had He stay with him several weeks until the term started. He Shugan commented that the form he learned from Hong and Chen Fake’s were identical. However, Chen had He start at the beginning with jibengong exercises and then taught the form from the beginning as if he knew nothing. After the term started, He made weekly visits to study with Chen.

The following year, 1956, Hong came to visit his teacher, Chen Fake. to review, correct and improve his Taijiquan. He Shugan took a sabbatical from school and stayed with Hong in Chen’s house and accompanied them everyday to the park where Chen worked with Hong.

After reviewing the Yilu and Erlu and going over usage and its counters and counters to the counters, Hong asked if he could perform and teach his form in the exact manner that the usages were performed. Chen agreed. Here, He Shugan slightly modifies Hong's account. Hong's account implies that he had the modifications figured out and only got Chen’s approval. He Shugan says that Hong probably had some notions about how to modify the form, but that Hong and Chen Fake went through each movement in the form again and again to refine it, that there was a lot of instruction and changes happening, and Chen Fake approved every movement. At the end of going through the Yilu, Chen proclaimed, “There is not a single useless movement in this form."

Hong and Chen then started going through the Erlu. They had gone through the whole form but had not refined all the details when Hong was summoned home for his daughter’s wedding. Hong intended to return the following year, but Chen Fake died before he could return.

He Shugan continued his studies in Beijing and continued studying at Chen Fake's school until he graduated. Later, He was imprisoned for decades as a dissident. This took a toll on his health and the strength of his body.

This video was filmed by He’s students in Heze. It shows three forms.
0:04 The first is the Hong’s version of the Chen Yilu created with Chen Fake, which Hong later called the Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method Yilu
11:50 The second is the Erlu they started that Hong later finished according to the usage teachings he had received from Chen.
17:18 The third is the form He Shugan studied while at Chen Fake’s school.

Most of this information comes from a 2004 interview of He Shugan that I conducted along with Chen Zhonghua. I asked how Hong's Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method Yilu differed from the Yilu Hong had originally taught him. He described that the hands were closer together, some of the angles had been changed, some circles had become simple turns of the hand, and that there were specific instructions, or rules, to be followed as a guide for usage. A demonstration of the differences was discussed but did not happen due to schedule.

It is more than unfortunate that we did not get video of the form Hong originally taught He Shugan. This would have given us significant information about the development of Chen Taijiquan.

He Shugan never told us that he learned a new form or a new way to perform Hong's form while studying in Chen Fake’s school, only that they were the same. There was only the Yilu and Erlu that Chen and Hong created in the park in 1956, and the form he learned from Hong and re-learned from Chen Fake.

One may notice the similarity between He’s third form and the form of Chen Fake’s "later” students and Chen Zhaokui’s the form later called Xinjia in the Chen Village. Hong published, regarding his 1956 visit, that Chen Fake had changed the way he taught the form. He said the main difference was that Chen Fake had relaxed the rule that that back of the calf should connect with the ground. However, due to this statement many have assumed that Chen’s earlier and later students had been taught different forms and that the changes occurred between 1944 and 1956.

However, if the third form is the form Hong taught He Shugan, and it was only corrected and not modified while at Chen’s school, then Chen Fake's form was developed much earlier, between 1930 and 1944 or Chen Fake may even have arrived with it in this form when he came from the Chen Village in 1929.

However, all we can definitively say is this is the form that He Shugan studied while in Chen Fake’s school starting in 1955. Perhaps some of He Shugan’s students in Heze know the history of this form.

Here, He Shugan is in his 70’s and imprisonment took a toll on the strength of his body, but the details in the forms are clear.

[Formosa Neijia]

Well maybe Chen style should have been done the way Du Yuze does it but, you need to remember that he was taught by Chen Yanxi who if I recall correctly was Du's family bodyguard and I'm not sure how much and how long Du Yuze was able to study.

It really burns the "Village People" up that Du was the same generation as Chen Fa-ke, meaning that he was closer to the original Chen source than nearly anyone, meaning his students are ahead of most of the village people. Casting so-called "doubts" on his stuff is weak considering how much Du had and according to all I talked to, he had a whole lot and it was pretty in-depth.

I also have to say that the "Taiwanese" Chen style went on it's own road, without anymore exposure to China's Chen style for a long period of time.

This idea that the guys that brought Chen style to Taiwan "need" a connection to the village to remain up-to-date or whatever is a joke considering the style fell into near oblivion in the village itself. I know people don't like to hear that but it's true and fairly easily corroborated. I've even had friends that went in the early 80s and nothing much was going on even then. Du and others brought Chen style with them. They didn't NEED the village then and no one needs taichi Disneyland now except for tourists.

Having said that, Tu Zong-ren showed me personally certificates of teaching signed by Chen Zheng-lei himself that Tu had mastered nearly everything the village had to offer. I was a bit shocked to see that but Tu had an intimate knowledge of ALL frames of Chen (laojia, xinjia, "xin" xinjia, xiaojia, huleijia, and his beloved long fist) both "Taiwan" and village styles, to the extent that he could mirror most of the forms opening to the left -- something I have never seen anyone else do.

You say that "how modern Chen became nothing but a performance art", well maybe to your eyes.

Yes, it went off the rails decades ago. I really don't care whether a few holdouts are doing legit kungfu or not when the commie government uses the village as taichi Disneyland to bilk people of their money and the gov promotes any claim the village cares to make because it's in their soft-power desires to do so. The damage they have done to Chen and other arts is immense and I don't forgive them for that. Most of this stuff is now soft propaganda, as even youtube has started labeling videos with the disclaimer that the uploaders are directly funded by the Chinese government.

The only one on the mainland I really have respect for are the Practical Method people and maybe Chen Qing-zhou, etc. mostly because Joseph Chen's people regularly mop the floor with the village people.

I remember Tu Zongren telling me that he didn't have or didn't work so much on applications but rather on multiple forms. Just my honest and personnal opinion

That unfortunately is very true. His knowledge of applications is not there IMO and his push hands is rudimentary at best. That's why I discontinued my studies with him and reverted back to what I learned in the Wang Meng-bi lineage of "Taiwan Chen style" which i obviously prefer.

BTW, hakkesho (Japanese for baguazhang) was few and far between in Tokyo when I lived there for two years in the late 90's. Kudos to you for finding someone to train with.

[Doc Stier]

Tell it, brother! Tell it.

Embracing the current standard forms and training curriculum of the Chen village teachers doesn't place those who practice those forms closer to the original style. Instead, it actually distances them from it, since the current standard forms are the result of several modifications from the original forms and training methods.

Any attempts made now to retroengineer the current standard material to its earlier state will always be fraught with doubt and inevitably be doomed to failure. The older versions of the style can only be truly received from lineages that never edited or modified it. The same can be logically said of every other major TCC style, imo.

[Bhassler]

Well maybe Chen style should have been done the way Du Yuze does it but, you need to remember that he was taught by Chen Yanxi who if I recall correctly was Du's family bodyguard and I'm not sure how much and how long Du Yuze was able to study.

It really burns the "Village People" up that Du was the same generation as Chen Fa-ke, meaning that he was closer to the original Chen source than nearly anyone, meaning his students are ahead of most of the village people. Casting so-called "doubts" on his stuff is weak considering how much Du had and according to all I talked to, he had a whole lot and it was pretty in-depth.

I also have to say that the "Taiwanese" Chen style went on it's own road, without anymore exposure to China's Chen style for a long period of time.

This idea that the guys that brought Chen style to Taiwan "need" a connection to the village to remain up-to-date or whatever is a joke considering the style fell into near oblivion in the village itself. I know people don't like to hear that but it's true and fairly easily corroborated. I've even had friends that went in the early 80s and nothing much was going on even then. Du and others brought Chen style with them. They didn't NEED the village then and no one needs taichi Disneyland now except for tourists.

Having said that, Tu Zong-ren showed me personally certificates of teaching signed by Chen Zheng-lei himself that Tu had mastered nearly everything the village had to offer. I was a bit shocked to see that but Tu had an intimate knowledge of ALL frames of Chen (laojia, xinjia, "xin" xinjia, xiaojia, huleijia, and his beloved long fist) both "Taiwan" and village styles, to the extent that he could mirror most of the forms opening to the left -- something I have never seen anyone else do.

You say that "how modern Chen became nothing but a performance art", well maybe to your eyes.

Yes, it went off the rails decades ago. I really don't care whether a few holdouts are doing legit kungfu or not when the commie government uses the village as taichi Disneyland to bilk people of their money and the gov promotes any claim the village cares to make because it's in their soft-power desires to do so. The damage they have done to Chen and other arts is immense and I don't forgive them for that. Most of this stuff is now soft propaganda, as even youtube has started labeling videos with the disclaimer that the uploaders are directly funded by the Chinese government.

The only one on the mainland I really have respect for are the Practical Method people and maybe Chen Qing-zhou, etc. mostly because Joseph Chen's people regularly mop the floor with the village people.

I remember Tu Zongren telling me that he didn't have or didn't work so much on applications but rather on multiple forms. Just my honest and personnal opinion

That unfortunately is very true. His knowledge of applications is not there IMO and his push hands is rudimentary at best. That's why I discontinued my studies with him and reverted back to what I learned in the Wang Meng-bi lineage of "Taiwan Chen style" which i obviously prefer.

BTW, hakkesho (Japanese for baguazhang) was few and far between in Tokyo when I lived there for two years in the late 90's. Kudos to you for finding someone to train with.

There's not really any sort of compelling argument being made here. Tu Zongren was one of only four disciples of Du Yu Ze, and in the traditional sense of discipleship would therefore be representative of Du Yu Ze's gongfu. Yet you say that Tu had essentially nothing in terms of the actual gongfu of the art-- i.e. no applications or tuishou. In which case, he's a Disneyland dancer, just like the village guys you rail against. That doesn't sound like someone who has "an intimate knowledge of all frames of Chen," it just sounds like a form collector. In case anyone hasn't figured it out, yet, the choreography doesn't make the art, it's the underlying gongfu and mechanics that define it.

For reference, here's a video of Tu:

[Doc Stier]

"In case anyone hasn't figured it out, yet, the choreography doesn't make the art, it's the underlying gongfu and mechanics that define it."

Very true. Many notable examples of top practitioners in the same or different styles have achieved very high levels of internal cultivation and formible fighting skills via a wide variety of style forms and drills performed with different stylistic interpretations and visual expressions. Clearly, sound foundation principles and effective body methods are of much greater importance than simply adhering to prescribed standardized forms. Just saying.

[Formosa Neijia]

There's not really any sort of compelling argument being made here.

And I don't see any coherent argument from you either, as is usually the case with your posts.

Yet you say that Tu had essentially nothing in terms of the actual gongfu of the art-- i.e. no applications or tuishou. In which case, he's a Disneyland dancer, just like the village guys you rail against. That doesn't sound like someone who has "an intimate knowledge of all frames of Chen," it just sounds like a form collector.

99% of the teachers I met in my 20 years in Taiwan consider skill at forms as "kungfu" and that's where their skill lies or that's all they teach. Tu's particular obsession is researching why the different frames do the techniques the way that they do. And he's got the highest knowledge I've ever seen for that. So he isn't just "forms collecting," he tears them apart to see what makes them tick and he is really good at them, but so are the mainlanders. The difference I've seen with Tu is that he tried not to change them: he's tried to keep the original methods. But no, he wasn't into apps or push hands enough for my personal tastes.

On a side note, just how much push hands knowledge Chen style originally had in the beginning is questionable as I was told it wasn't really part of traditional Chen and was added from Yang style later on. Xiang Kai-ren's book makes it clear from his encounter with Chen Zhao-pi in Beijing in 1928:

Then I noticed that his pushing hands consists of only the same-side [i.e. opposite-step] moving-step method, meaning that when one person has his left foot forward, the other person has his right foot forward [whereas Wu and Yang practitioners tend to practice this primarily with the same foot forward], warding off and pressing with an advancing step, rolling back and pushing with a retreating step.
I asked him: “How many patterns does your pushing hands have?”
He said: “Just this one.”
Then I asked: “Is there no fixed-step version, with the feet not moving?”
“No.”
“Is there no four-corner advancing and retreat exercise like the ‘large rollback’?”
“No.”
I thought this was quite strange. What Yang Luchan learned from the Chen Family Village has gone through a mere three generations. How is it that Chen Jifu’s teaching differs so much?

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2016/07/31/xiang-kairans-taiji-experience/

And thanks for posting my video again. I already posted it above.

[Bhassler]

There's not really any sort of compelling argument being made here.

And I don't see any coherent argument from you either, as is usually the case with your posts.

I'm not making any claims one way or the other, I was just pointing out that your arguments don't support your position of being interested in taiji that can actually be used for fighting. They also don't serve to differentiate Taiwan Chen style from mainland Chen style in any meaningful measure.

Yet you say that Tu had essentially nothing in terms of the actual gongfu of the art-- i.e. no applications or tuishou. In which case, he's a Disneyland dancer, just like the village guys you rail against. That doesn't sound like someone who has "an intimate knowledge of all frames of Chen," it just sounds like a form collector.

99% of the teachers I met in my 20 years in Taiwan consider skill at forms as "kungfu" and that's where their skill lies or that's all they teach. Tu's particular obsession is researching why the different frames do the techniques the way that they do. And he's got the highest knowledge I've ever seen for that. So he isn't just "forms collecting," he tears them apart to see what makes them tick and he is really good at them, but so are the mainlanders. The difference I've seen with Tu is that he tried not to change them: he's tried to keep the original methods. But no, he wasn't into apps or push hands enough for my personal tastes.

From what I've learned, the applications ARE the reason why things are done they way they are, so I'm not sure I would trust the validity of any claims made without that understanding. Saying that that's the way most people in Taiwan do it doesn't make the approach more useful or valid. But hey, you do you.

On a side note, just how much push hands knowledge Chen style originally had in the beginning is questionable as I was told it wasn't really part of traditional Chen and was added from Yang style later on. Xiang Kai-ren's book makes it clear from his encounter with Chen Zhao-pi in Beijing in 1928:

Then I noticed that his pushing hands consists of only the same-side [i.e. opposite-step] moving-step method, meaning that when one person has his left foot forward, the other person has his right foot forward [whereas Wu and Yang practitioners tend to practice this primarily with the same foot forward], warding off and pressing with an advancing step, rolling back and pushing with a retreating step.
I asked him: “How many patterns does your pushing hands have?”
He said: “Just this one.”
Then I asked: “Is there no fixed-step version, with the feet not moving?”
“No.”
“Is there no four-corner advancing and retreat exercise like the ‘large rollback’?”
“No.”
I thought this was quite strange. What Yang Luchan learned from the Chen Family Village has gone through a mere three generations. How is it that Chen Jifu’s teaching differs so much?

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2016/07/31/xiang-kairans-taiji-experience/

And thanks for posting my video again. I already posted it above.

Too many videos on this thread, I missed it before. I'm glad I at least picked a good one, though.

[yeniseri]

Whenever I see variations as above, I attribute it to the era.

Chen Qingzhu has said that in his time, the 'old pattern' (my words) has been changed based on the Laojia and Xinjia (Old Style/New Style) orientation. They have been stated to be the same but the 'fancier' and 'elaborate' New Style just shows embellishement that Laojia does not show. Even X'ian chen style has a different and unique outward expression while that all show variations of body posture, martial mechanics based on form exposition and 'speed' of the routine. I notice that X'ian does form at a faster "slower' pace than the intermittent fast/slow of Chenjiagou (stated to be the truer origin! ). No doubt that Chenjiagou is the origin but it appears that there are enough variation to see thay have merit and moreso if they show depth of more than just form expression. Can the exponents of the specific form expressions do tuishou, sanshou, etc encompassing the totality of the range of taijiquan training.

I recall an article in Tai CHi Magazine where Chen Qingshu stated that he would always do Laojia but said that his sons should do New Style because of the criteria for participation and incljusion. If they did not do New Style, he feared that the sons' prospects would be limited in the taolu sport world but he did insist they learn the Old Style (laojia) of his ancestors as part of that cultural tradition.

[GrahamB]

It's a popular assumption that if you're just good at Tai Chi forms, but not push hands, you can't be "martial". But why?

There seem to be plenty of "working class" Chinese martial arts that don't have some sort of intermediate step to fighting. (Hello, Choy Li Fut**).

Remember, Yang was teaching the educated middle and upper classes in the Royal Court in Beijing in the 1860s. Push hands looks much more like the sort of thing city-slickers wearing court dress would have been into, rather than anything low class and crude, like fighting

That might also explain why there was little push hands coming from the rural outpost in the middle of nowhere like Chen village, which had a reputation for militia training and catching "bandits"* (all weapons-based work).

(*One man's bandit, is another man's rebel freedom fighter, as Luke Skywalker once told me)

(** CLF rival, Wing Chun with its more refined Sticky Hands was also seen as more of a middle class thing in contrast to the working man's martial art, before it moved to HK with Yip Man who fell on hard times and had to teach for a living).

[Formosa Neijia]

I'm not making any claims one way or the other, I was just pointing out that your arguments don't support your position of being interested in taiji that can actually be used for fighting.

Try to keep up: I've already stated TWICE in the thread that i left studying with Tu after i realized apps weren't his thing. I had already learned the Chen system and huleijia taiji from my long fist teacher at that point, applications intact. In hindsight, I should have stayed with Tu for a year and learned his method but I was a bit impulsive.

From what I've learned, the applications ARE the reason why things are done they way they are, so I'm not sure I would trust the validity of any claims made without that understanding.

One of the hardest things about coming back to the States after 20 years in Taiwan is dealing with foreigners who have absolutely no idea what it's like overseas. It isn't just in Taiwan, it's China too: people are who good at applying ANYTHING are as rare as hen's teeth and most of them are only teaching forms, too. In the time that I was there, I met 100s of teachers of various styles. Guys back here might have one Chen style teacher in a 3-state area. Most teachers base their kungfu on their knowledge of forms passed on to them and that's just the way it is. I don't like it either but it's reality.

I recall an article in Tai CHi Magazine where Chen Qingshu stated that he would always do Laojia but said that his sons should do New Style because of the criteria for participation and incljusion. If they did not do New Style, he feared that the sons' prospects would be limited in the taolu sport world but he did insist they learn the Old Style (laojia) of his ancestors as part of that cultural tradition.

That's interesting so thanks for adding that in. I wasn't aware of any explicit criteria but it makes sense. I personally watched that attitude sweep through Taiwan. When I got there in Jan. 2000, people were still doing the laojia with old-school integrity but starting about 2004, there were multiple "village people seminar tours" coming through every year where the celebrity would stand on a stage and "instruct" the masses standing behind him. No one could really see what he was doing but it didn't matter because it was "direct from the village" and that's all that was important. Foreigners who attended told me their Chen was more authentic than mine because their famous teachers name was actually Chen, like 25% of the population isn't named Chen. They also brought in fajin-through-a-wushu-blade as proof of their skills, like real swords had such wispy blades (they don't) and an untrained beginner can make those things shake. Then they said the amount of wushu hand-twirling they did in the forms showed that they were better and our old ways were inferior and "not real Chen" so they used all of this and their tournament participation to gain followers. Sometimes they even opened new classes near teachers that were teaching the old style, a coincidence I'm sure.
So good for Chen Qing-shu for keeping the old ways.

[Formosa Neijia]

It's a popular assumption that if you're just good at Tai Chi forms, but not push hands, you can't be "martial". But why?

There seem to be plenty of "working class" Chinese martial arts that don't have some sort of intermediate step to fighting. (Hello, Choy Li Fut**).

My CLF teacher did the same sanhsou that is found in the Yizong versions of BGZ/XYQ/TJQ that I would later study in the States and Taiwan but I take your point that CLF usually goes right into sparring. I was taught CLF through primarily sparring so it was transmitted through my teacher's hands directly to me, something i will be eternally grateful for. Not having a ton of material to get through like a huge push hands system might be one of the reasons CLF teaches people to fight so quickly but it's de-emphasis on forms work in some circles also helps. When I talked with Lee Koon-hung, Tat Mau-wong's teacher, he was glad to hear that we didn't do "taichi CLF" like the famous guy in San Francisco that teaches a 1000 forms. Lee and Tat were obviously famous for winning full-contact fights in HK.

As an aside, if you really look hard at Chen Zheng-lei's form and push hands, you can see obvious elements of Yang style that were brought in. The Chens in the village really learned a lot from Yang style about how to package their material to appeal to a certain demographic.

In fact, the reason I posted this clip below is you can see that Chen used to be a lot simpler in its outward expression across multiple players from the old ways. Wu Tu-nan was famous for telling Chen Fa-ke that his Chen style wasn't taichi and was just shaolin hong quan and Chen made the form fairy Wu look ridiculous by telling him he didn't care what it was called just as long as it kicked ass. Wu said it wasn't "internal" (whatever the hell that means this week) and Chen said they didn't have that distinction out in the countryside, probably too busy fighting off bandits to worry about what it's labeled. Later Chen players took Wu's message as a warning they better massage their material a bit. So Du's and other Taiwan player's Chen style is incorrectly viewed as having "diverged" when it was actually the village that diverged then lied about "this is how it's always been done."

[Bob]

I am making absolutely no claims about the martial arts prowess of Chen Qingzhou but simply pointing out his claim that what he learned was of the "old" style and its flavor always reminded me of that of the Du Ye Ze line (mine has that and some modifications from Wang Mengbi and modifications of what Liu Yunqiao did given his 1928 exchange with Chen Fake at a Beijing Military site)

http://chenfamilytaiji.com/profile_chen_qingzhou.html

Grandmaster Chen Qingzhou's Taiji Lineage:

Chen Qingzhou is a 19th-generation lineage holder in Chen Family Taijiquan Gongfu and a direct descendant of the ancestral founder of Chen Village where Taijiquan originated. Born in 1934, he began training in Chen Family Old Frame under his father, Chen Wufang. He was later sent to study with the great 18th-generation master, Chen Zhaopi, disciple of Chen Fake. From his early youth, Chen Qingzhou had a tremendous love for Taijiquan. He practiced diligently and took careful notes of everything he learned. As a result, Chen Zhaopi permitted him to teach after only one year of study and granted him the status of rumen (indoor) disciple in 1962.


Master Chen Qingzhou's Love of "Lao Jia":

In 1974, Chen Qingzhou began learning Chen Family New Frame from Chen Zhaokui, the youngest son of Chen Fake. He subsequently abandoned New Frame, asserting that Chen Family

Taijiquan should be preserved and taught as it had been for hundreds of years. He therefore retained the entire Old Frame system: Old Frame First Form, Old Frame Second Form (Paochui), Taiji Single Sword, Taiji Double Sword, Taiji Single Broadsword, Spring-Autumn Broadsword, Short Staff (Wu Hu Qun Yang Gun), Three-Man Staff, Pear Blossom Spear/White Ape Staff (Li Hua Qiang Jia Bai Yuan Gun), Taiji sphere, Taiji ruler (xing gong bang), pole shaking (dou gun zi), the five push-hands techniques of Chen Village, and joint locking and grappling (na fa). The empty-hand forms contain the core principles of Chen Family Taijiquan: chan si jin (silk-reeling energy), yin jing lou kong (leading into emptiness), zhou hua (neutralization), na fa, the basic energies, etc. In addition to these skills, weapons are used specifically for building up fa jin (explosive force), ting jin (sensitivity), and improving footwork.

Chen Qingzhou spent twenty years training and teaching (and sometimes sleeping) in the Liberation Cemetery in Wenxian. He had taught all over the world since the early 90s. It is often said among Taijiquan practitioners that two of the highest skills in the art are Chen Xiaowang's fa jin and Chen Qingzhou's zhou hua (neutralization). Shortly after China liberalized its relations with the West, Chen Family Taijiquan research and training centers were established in both Wen County and Chen Village. Chen Qingzhou was named General Instructor and Head Coach of the Wenxian Center, as well as Vice-Secretary General of the Wenxian International Annual Conference of Taijiquan. He had accepted the position of Head Coach at the Army Technology University of Nanjing, and had also accepted teaching appointments in ten provinces. For over four decades, he had taught Chen Family Taijiquan before he passed away, exactly as it was handed down to him by Chen Zhaopei. . . .

[Bhassler]

I'm not making any claims one way or the other, I was just pointing out that your arguments don't support your position of being interested in taiji that can actually be used for fighting.

Try to keep up: I've already stated TWICE in the thread that i left studying with Tu after i realized apps weren't his thing. I had already learned the Chen system and huleijia taiji from my long fist teacher at that point, applications intact. In hindsight, I should have stayed with Tu for a year and learned his method but I was a bit impulsive.

From what I've learned, the applications ARE the reason why things are done they way they are, so I'm not sure I would trust the validity of any claims made without that understanding.

One of the hardest things about coming back to the States after 20 years in Taiwan is dealing with foreigners who have absolutely no idea what it's like overseas. It isn't just in Taiwan, it's China too: people are who good at applying ANYTHING are as rare as hen's teeth and most of them are only teaching forms, too. In the time that I was there, I met 100s of teachers of various styles. Guys back here might have one Chen style teacher in a 3-state area. Most teachers base their kungfu on their knowledge of forms passed on to them and that's just the way it is. I don't like it either but it's reality.

I recall an article in Tai CHi Magazine where Chen Qingshu stated that he would always do Laojia but said that his sons should do New Style because of the criteria for participation and incljusion. If they did not do New Style, he feared that the sons' prospects would be limited in the taolu sport world but he did insist they learn the Old Style (laojia) of his ancestors as part of that cultural tradition.

That's interesting so thanks for adding that in. I wasn't aware of any explicit criteria but it makes sense. I personally watched that attitude sweep through Taiwan. When I got there in Jan. 2000, people were still doing the laojia with old-school integrity but starting about 2004, there were multiple "village people seminar tours" coming through every year where the celebrity would stand on a stage and "instruct" the masses standing behind him. No one could really see what he was doing but it didn't matter because it was "direct from the village" and that's all that was important. Foreigners who attended told me their Chen was more authentic than mine because their famous teachers name was actually Chen, like 25% of the population isn't named Chen. They also brought in fajin-through-a-wushu-blade as proof of their skills, like real swords had such wispy blades (they don't) and an untrained beginner can make those things shake. Then they said the amount of wushu hand-twirling they did in the forms showed that they were better and our old ways were inferior and "not real Chen" so they used all of this and their tournament participation to gain followers. Sometimes they even opened new classes near teachers that were teaching the old style, a coincidence I'm sure.
So good for Chen Qing-shu for keeping the old ways.

Let me break it down for you. You seem to be claiming that Du Yuze is more representative of pre Chen Fake taiji, which you also assert is more "real"/authentic/martial than current iterations. At the same time, you are saying that your only direct connection to the actual practice of Du Yuze-- one of his few disciples, no less-- has no real martial capability, and therefore you ceased instruction with them. Your own evaluation of the most direct connection to Du Yuze available seems to negate the claim of martial authenticity. Whatever anyone else in Taiwan has nothing to do with anything. If you're going to go on a rant about how other people's shit is fake, at least be self consistent.

As far as Du Yuze himself, he also learned Xiaojia, which seems clearly evident in the video of him doing the form. Based on that, one could argue that Chen Yanxi's form was closer to Xiaojia, or that Chen Yanxi's stuff was different and Du didn't really get it, or that all those Taiwan guys are weird and who knows what they're doing? None of it really matters, because none of it can be reliably confirmed or refuted. Embrace the mystery of the unknown...

[Bhassler]

It's a popular assumption that if you're just good at Tai Chi forms, but not push hands, you can't be "martial". But why?

There seem to be plenty of "working class" Chinese martial arts that don't have some sort of intermediate step to fighting. (Hello, Choy Li Fut**).

Remember, Yang was teaching the educated middle and upper classes in the Royal Court in Beijing in the 1860s. Push hands looks much more like the sort of thing city-slickers wearing court dress would have been into, rather than anything low class and crude, like fighting ;)

100% agree that skill in tuishou does not necessarily equate to skill in fighting; however, there should be *some* kind of practice there that relates to translating skills in form to application on another human being. It could be tuishou, or drills, or sparring, or going out and being a thug, but whatever it is, something has to exist beyond shadowboxing.

That might also explain why there was little push hands coming from the rural outpost in the middle of nowhere like Chen village, which had a reputation for militia training and catching "bandits"* (all weapons-based work).

The use of weapons is a valid point, and I think there's interesting stuff to think about in terms of how empty hand stuff relates to training in multigeneration family units with limited resources, as well as application in the broader social structure of the village and maintaining a certain status quo.

[Formosa Neijia]

Let me break it down for you.

And let me break it down for you, I don't care what you think about this or frankly anything else since you're shown yourself to be totally impervious to logic and reason. You're in a pissy mood because I think Du's performance is the standard, well deal with it because I don't care.

You seem to be claiming that Du Yuze is more representative of pre Chen Fake taiji, which you also assert is more "real"/authentic/martial than current iterations... and Du didn't really get it, or that all those Taiwan guys are weird and who knows what they're doing?

Yes, you and others don't understand it and that's fine with me. Go back to your commie wushu hand-twirling, if that's your thing.

On a side note to everyone else, Tu Zong-ren did have some pretty big shoes to fill by getting so much material from Du. With 4-5 frames just from Du you're looking at around 8 long forms (huleijia and long fist being only one form each) plus the village material with the weapons forms. That's a lot to keep up with and Tu's performance was always excellent on everything I saw him do.