the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Martial Arts Journey
Jan 19, 2022

As a lifelong Aikidoka after trying out Wrestling I realized that many of the answers I was looking for in Aikido were actually found in Wrestling. With the help of Oliver Enkamp a professional MMA fighter and coach I took a look at why wrestling is the missing link to aikido.

00:00 An unexpected discovery
01:18 A game-changer for aikido
02:41 Aikido Ikkyo made functional
03:16 Rickson Gracie and Connection
03:52 Testing out wrestling principles in Aikido techniques
04:36 Chaining techniques - the missing link to Aikido
05:12 Making Aikido work with the action-reaction principle
05:47 Making non-violence work
06:22 Closing the distance the right way
07:21 Aikido grabbing vs wrestling grabbing

If you want to see my whole exchange with Oliver, watch it here: https://youtu.be/iYW0fxxA-D0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik1_WaSVSXc

Inside Martial Arts Journey
Jan 19, 2022

The full exchange of an MMA fighter Oliver Enkamp and Aikido black belt Rokas Leonavicius in looking at how wrestling could make Aikido functional.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYW0fxxA-D0

Wrestling was also a game changer that made GNP work.

Nice of aikido to notice

GNP?

He’s onto something. Takeda started with sumo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ4YWwupwiA) and ended up creating Daito-ryu. Ueshiba took it and distilled it into aikido. Doing aikido without the slightest hint at resistance created the mess the guys like Rokas have to deal with now (if they want to have something working, not just a fluffy ritualistic dance in which aikido has degraded).

The video just goes to show how lacking the average Aikido people are in terms of both the skills and knowledge needed to apply their art.

Aikido comes from Daito Ryu Aiki-jujitsu, a mainly stand-up fighting art for the samurai passed down in secrecy within the Takeda clan that focuses on using internal body skills called "aiki" to control and attack the opponent with joint-locks (chin-na) and strikes.

Therefore, aiki-jujitsu was actually meant to be an "anti-grappling" art as it would be extremely unwise and dangerous for a samurai to get tangled up in a one-on-one grappling match or even go to the ground while fighting on the battlefield.

So you can try to make Aikido functional by adding elements of grappling arts such as wrestling, Judo, Shuaijiao, and Sambo to the mix, but it won't be a true aiki art anymore.

GNP “ground and pound”

Sakuraba, Fedor, etc

Also forced a lot of anti takedown improvement

GNP gee have not heard that for a while
Thanks
He confuses how he was trained with all aikido
The chain he talks about missing is there in all good Aikido
Sergie Sugano was a master of changing as soon as one move was disolved
I was taught great lockflows from Aikido
I remember seeing a visiting teacher from Kamakura Hombu flow like pushing hands from one move to the next
Nothing wrong with the guy learning wrestling but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water
My tai chi teacher would often say when talking about real fights
The closer they get the more comfortable I get

HotSoup wrote:He’s onto something. Takeda started with sumo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ4YWwupwiA) and ended up creating Daito-ryu. Ueshiba took it and distilled it into aikido. Doing aikido without the slightest hint at resistance created the mess the guys like Rokas have to deal with now (if they want to have something working, not just a fluffy ritualistic dance in which aikido has degraded).

Excellent observation. Ueshiba trained "hard", physical conditioning with exposure to judo, sword, work, and was a tough guy until he "matured" to transform that training to what we call aikido. Many of his early "students" (they studied other arts before) had that background so 'softening' that to aikido was a great step. I see this dichotomy with modern day students who only train SOFT and expect to beocme martial adepts and it frequently falls short of Ueshiba's skill.
Perhaps I am getting stupid as I age but I see a similar pattern with kali, escrima, etc where the weapon skill translated to open hand versatility thereby making the base stronger. But it is weapons first as foundation then the hand art delivers.



One example of how the knowledge of sword can make technique better! It doesn't tell the whole story but there is an aikido (i do not remember his name but sword work was his expertise and he found that it assisted and developed aikido manuevering, control and knowledge. I will post when I find. Minds are a terrible thing.

Addition:
Principle and concept only where sword/ken/bo work as base, provides the "structural" elements for Nishio Sensei in how this "strengthes" aikido through the "harde" conditioning of the weapons.
He goes through why many ""techniques" do not work and timing is a major element in this debacle.

AFA Daitoryu, I ran this by a friend from my Hokkaido days who trained fairly extensively with a Daito-ryu teacher as well as judo, shuai jiao and CMA striking arts... he pointed me to Tomiki style Aikido as an example of a style that has competition... but he said also that a decent wrestler would be better at takedowns...


He also pointed out that a lot of the daito-ryu practicioners who he knew crosstrained in other styles for example Shigemitsu Kato had been a boxer:

C.J.W. wrote:So you can try to make Aikido functional by adding elements of grappling arts such as wrestling, Judo, Shuaijiao, and Sambo to the mix, but it won't be a true aiki art anymore.

I agree.

At 5:52, Jason Delucia says, "Traditionally when you learn it, you learn it from a grab or you learn it from a head cut. This is sufficient to learn the technique but to do it in combat it's never going to happen because no one ever does this."

At 22:23 in "Competitive Form," Jason goes over entries and timing. However at 33:49 in "Randori," it looks more like judo/grappling.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5GAAfWWxYY

vadaga wrote:AFA Daitoryu, I ran this by a friend from my Hokkaido days who trained fairly extensively with a Daito-ryu teacher as well as judo, shuai jiao and CMA striking arts... he pointed me to Tomiki style Aikido as an example of a style that has competition... but he said also that a decent wrestler would be better at takedowns...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoQQlOEnSFI

I posted,"Rokas fails to grab Jesse, because Jesse is able to yield by pushing off his front foot." Rokas appears to lack an understanding of timing.

The aikidoka controls his opponent before he can plant his front foot: (Edit: See correction below.)



Correction: Looking closer (had it for awhile), the opponent does plant his front left foot.

At :08, the same entry with opponent in front of him fails. The opponent is able to yield and turn away from the force. However at :26, the aikidoka throws his opponent by pushing opponent (unable to move his head) towards the dead angle with his left foot outside of opponent's left foot (side door).



Throw Fail:

vadaga wrote:AFA Daitoryu, I ran this by a friend from my Hokkaido days who trained fairly extensively with a Daito-ryu teacher as well as judo, shuai jiao and CMA striking arts... he pointed me to Tomiki style Aikido as an example of a style that has competition... but he said also that a decent wrestler would be better at takedowns...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoQQlOEnSFI

Rokas and his SBG coaches go over the same video at 4:03 and 20:05.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSPl_JbNTYU

SBG: They're moving in and out. They're kind of in longer range. They go into striking range. Then, they go into clinch range and they come back out. Then, one guy caught the other guy flat footed and shoved them over.

There appears to be no striking you just fine so it becomes a grappling competition but we'll have to watch more but I haven't seen any grabbing yet which is really an interesting limitation and so I've never seen a grappling competition that didn't involve grabbing and so you can see how it completely changes the game.

marvin8: Right. A goal of aikido is to control the opponent before getting into clinch range and cause the opponent the least amount of injury—not to get into a grappling match. The competition rules of Toshu Randori, prohibit the use of techniques other than the 17-hon techniques, such as judo and wrestling skills.

At :08, the throw fails. Because, the opponent is able to yield and turn away from the force. However at :26, the throw is successful. In both attempts, the opponent is flat footed. The difference is in positioning and timing. The failed throw is closer to shomen ate. The successful throw is closer to aigamae ate.

SBG: It's hard for me to place in the striking/grappling concept where this falls. I don't see a line getting me from what they're doing to — Oh, someone's trying to hit me or hold me on the ground. I don't see that line....I don't see a single conceptual pathway to grappling plus striking equals fighting. I don't see that road for what's going on here.

marvin8: The same concept used in this Toshu Randori match is found in combat sports (e.g., boxing, MMA)—which I have posted examples of on RSF. That being controlling the opponent with footwork, positioning and timing (e.g., position before submission). The difference being what is issued (e.g., push, strike, throw, submission, etc.). (It appears these SBG coaches lack a deeper understanding of this point.)

Rokas: It probably looks like what how Aikido should look, like I did it realistically. Basically, it’s a philosophy. But, it doesn't look like, you know, training like the Aikido training you normally see.

marvin8: Right Rokas. However, you have shown the difficulties with grabbing limbs in fights with SBG and Jesse Enkamp. An opponent can move their limbs, even if they're touched/grabbed. Also, chasing limbs may open one to feints/counters and missing the opportunity to control the opponent when they are double weighted (timing). So, the skills developed in Toshu Randori are more realistically transferred to fights. As Cheng Man Ching says, “A Force of 1,000 Pounds can be deflected with a Force of Four Ounces.”

So why do you need Aikido? Just study wrestling....

The problem is - wrestling is too hard on the body. People can't do it after a certain age. But that's why we have BJJ

And if you can't do that, don't worry. We have tai chi

This video seems to skim over or ignore many of the aikido principles that make aikido what it is, such as the nature of commitment to an attack. For example, in the section on chaining techniques he notes aikidoka only practice one technique at a time. That's because the techniques are designed to work against a committed attack. If you assume the opponent can decommit from a committed attack, or that the aikidoka was fooled into thinking an attack was committed (i.e. a feint) then 'chaining' is good; but it's not because of a flaw in aikido, it's because of the low level of the aikidoka in the first place. Now that has been pointed out, to skim over the idea and view it as a fault in aikido itself, such that there is a 'missing link', only points out that he is unaware of the principle. What flies in the face here is that he claims to be a life-long practitioner. This kind of video is irresponsible, and probably a little offensive.

We owe it to ourselves -- at the very least -- to understand and reach the level of our instructors before deciding that what they are teaching us doesn't work.

it doesn't seem possible to wait around for first party knowledge. there is only one poster here who was a jacket wrestling champion back in the day. there is one other (not posting any more?) who has taught "internals" to "high level" aikido instructors, who said they learned more in one weekend with him than ever before (not a great ad for the state of aikido). there isn't anyone (afaik) who has BOTH a high level wrestling record AND "internal" skill. and if one of you has that, you're being quite modest and not telling us about it that much.

At 1:26:

Rokas wrote:While in aikido, most techniques had a lot of distance between the attacker and aikidoka.... In reality, during most aikido techniques, the attacker has plenty of space to resist, turn out or escape.

Five techniques of the 17 Katas of Randori successfully used in high level MMA and competition.

00:28_4. Gedan-ate
02:22 10. Waga-gatame
04:58 12. Kote-gaeshi
06:23 _2. Aigame-ate
07:56 _9. Ude-hineri

Pedro Olavarria
Mar 17, 2020


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD3YlvDFLBE