Shaohou Xiao Jia of Gu Lisheng lineage — Liang Dehua

[marvin8]

Taiji Academy Online by Liang Dehua
Sep 19, 2021

This is the Yang small frame, or Xiao Jia taught by Yang Shaohou to Gu Lisheng, also called Yong Jia or usage frame. In 1947 Gu Lisheng was in Gui Yang, there was a martial arts competition event by The Central Guoshu Institute of Gui Yang, and Gu Lisheng was a judge at the exhibition. He demonstrated this small frame in the event and received great praise.

I learned this set from my teacher Chi Qingsheng, the last indoor disciple of Gu Lisheng.

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However, a small frame doesn't mean a small movement frame.

For example, master Ma Changxun also stated about the small frame as follow:

Wu family skill came from the Yang family. Quanyou learned it from Yang Luchan. When I (Ma Chang Xun) was following master Liu (Liu Wancang) learning boxing, the name "Wu style Taijiquan" didn't exist. It was called either "Yang style small frame," or "small frame." You could say that it is one part of the Yang family.
"Small frame" (Xiao Jia), can be easily misunderstood because the small frame movement doesn't look "small" at all. The relationship between the "Small frame" and "Big frame" are not related to the size of the boxing frame but instead, relate to other stories. For example, the first set is called "big frame" and the second set is called "small frame." The meaning of those names refers to a big brother (1st set) and a little /small brother (2nd set). It does not mean that Wu style boxing is small and Yang style is wide and open. Wu style Taiji is also very wide and open. You can see that master Wu Jianquan, Master Wang Ziying (Wang Maozai's son) and Master Liu Wancang also practiced big movements.

-GM Ma Changxun-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=559Iz1O080Q

[wayne hansen]

One of my Wu teachers did this form
I can’t remember now weather he attributed it to ban Hou or shou Hou
He only did it for demos so I only saw it half a dozen times

[C.J.W.]

While I have no experience in this system of Yang Taiji, it is still very interesting in the sense that it has retained some of the silk-reeling and fajin movements characteristic of Chen style but still has a compact Yang style feel to it.

This certainly looks like something Yang Luchan and his sons would've invented while they were transitioning from Chen to Yang.

[Bao]

One of my Wu teachers did this form
I can’t remember now weather he attributed it to ban Hou or shou Hou
He only did it for demos so I only saw it half a dozen times

Interesting... Did your teacher express fajin in the form? And what do you think about Liang's frame? It looks more like medium frame than small, had your frame about the same size of the frame/movements?

[Bao]

retained some of the silk-reeling and fajin movements characteristic of Chen style but still has a compact Yang style feel to it.
This certainly looks like something Yang Luchan and his sons would've invented while they were transitioning from Chen to Yang.

Don't understand what everyone assumes that what YLC learned from CCX looked like the Chen style seen today.

[wayne hansen]

Can't really remember if there was obvious fa Jin
I remember the jumping double kicks and that it was not done slowly
My teacher and his sister were both very slight and quite tall so that dictated how they did it
Because I already had two yang sets at the time I never bothered to learn it
I was more interested in their Wu forms and Hsing I
I never thought of them as fighters

[C.J.W.]

retained some of the silk-reeling and fajin movements characteristic of Chen style but still has a compact Yang style feel to it.
This certainly looks like something Yang Luchan and his sons would've invented while they were transitioning from Chen to Yang.

Don't understand what everyone assumes that what YLC learned from CCX looked like the Chen style seen today.

Well, since there are still lineages of Chen style that can be traced directly back to CCX, I think it's fair to say that even modern practitioners like us can still get a decent idea of what YLC learned from CCX.

[Bao]

Well, since there are still lineages of Chen style that can be traced directly back to CCX, I think it's fair to say that even modern practitioners like us can still get a decent idea of what YLC learned from CCX.

If we make broad generalized statements, we can also say that we get a decent idea about what YLC learned through his descendants today.

Yang Cheng Fu was the grandson of Yang Luchan. Still everyone believes that his Tai Chi is different. Because he popularized it and changed his art to suit public teaching in large classes.

Everyone believes that Chen Fake’s style resembles the original Chen style (that YLC learned). Despite the fact that he popularized it and changed his art to suit public teaching in large classes.

Funny how people measure the same type of development using different rules.

[HotSoup]

Easy. Chen style continued to exist in the environment where many practitioners acted as natural correctors to those making too many changes. First generations of Yang style didn’t have the luxury of dozens gongfu uncles living three houses away and quick to tell you that your modifications are crap and you have to follow the ways of your ancestors, like in Chenjiagou, Zhaobao, and later in Xi’an. It started happening only later, when the number of the Yang style practitioners multiplied in Bejing and the style was captured in some sort of a standard and even then your typical Yang form still looked a lot like Chen, while the Wu/Hao/Sun line diverted to a larger extent because of their early isolation.

The same thing happened to Chen Fake — once he had moved to Beijing, his form started actively mutating, to the point of being called “new” in Chenjiagou 50 years later.

The same thing happened to Taiwan — being cut off of the mainland MA community, the styles popular there started mutating and going their own way after just a few years. Some as much as turning into something very different as it became apparent after the information from the mainland had become readily available.

[Doc Stier]

It is a known fact that every major TCC style taught today has been modified and edited in content and stylistic expression by successive family Masters from what their original Founders created, usually in order to promote different teaching and training regimen priorities. Thus, it seems reasonable and logical to believe that both the Chen and Yang styles of Yang Lu-Chan's era were considerably different from what is taught today as the standard in these styles.

Those who insist otherwise often seem reluctant to accept the realization that what they are practicing is not entirely the same thing, despite the fact that the internal cultivation levels and fighting skills of current practitioners rarely, if ever, replicates that of the earlier generations.

Generally speaking, with similarly serious, earnest practice, the same training methods should produce the same or very similar skills. That is normally what any good system of apprenticeship in anything is intended to do. So, either the modern form set standards are different, or the manner of training is different, or both. I believe it is both.

[Bao]

It is a known fact that every major TCC style taught today has been modified and edited in content and stylistic expression by successive family Masters from what their original Founders created, usually in order to promote different teaching and training regimen priorities. Thus, it seems reasonable and logical to believe that both the Chen and Yang styles of Yang Lu-Chan's era were considerably different from what is taught today as the standard in these styles.

Those who insist otherwise often seem reluctant to accept the realization that what they are practicing is not entirely the same thing, despite the fact that the internal cultivation levels and fighting skills of current practitioners rarely, if ever, replicates that of the earlier generations.

Generally speaking, with similarly serious, earnest practice, the same training methods should produce the same or very similar skills. That is normally what any good system of apprenticeship in anything is intended to do. So, either the modern form set standards are different, or the manner of training is different, or both. I believe it is both.

Very true.

However, change is different than watering down. Things can change but there are things that should never be changed, or rather dropped. Taijiquan is and seems to always have been taught and learned for different reasons. If Principle is not the main focus in teaching and learning, then things will be lost. And soon Taijiquan will only remain as an empty shell. This could already be said about much that is called Taijiquan today, regardless style.

[HotSoup]

I don’t really get why realizing that the time is not the only — let alone being the main — factor affecting the changes in cultural artifacts, be they, say, languages, or martial arts, is so difficult to comprehend. It is not just a known but also scientifically proved fact that these cultural artifacts are influenced in their development by many historical, economical, and cultural factors making the speed of such changes different for all ancestors.

That speed and extent can be measured, as for languages. Both French and Italian descended from Latin, but French is obviously more distant despite the same starting point on the time scale. Perhaps the fact that Italian developed in the place of the highest concentration of native Latin speakers vs France where it was the second language to the native Gallian is a factor

It is really sad that many prefer to turn a blind eye to analyzing the complexity of the situation in order to find the truth and simply revert to the banal adage of “everything has changed, ergo must be to the same extent”. Without any proofs it doesn’t mean much.

[C.J.W.]

Hmm...okay, I'll bite.

The point I was trying to make is that this rare Yang form passed down by a 2nd generation Yang family member displays characteristics of both modern Chen and Yang, which happens to correspond with the historical progression that YLC had first learned Taiji from CCX and later gradually modified it into Yang style -- that's all.

Am I claiming that the art YLC got from CCX is identical to modern Chen style? Nope.

Am I assuming that Chen style and Yang style of CCX and YLC's era look like their modern descendants? Nope.


Please do try not to read too much into my posts.