Some tips on Peng — Liang Dehua

[windwalker]

Some excepts out of a document that was published by one of the members here

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,

https://www.facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition

一般理解，所謂勁兒，是把本身的神、意、氣集中到一點上，再把這個點運用到某個姿勢上
去。經過長期的鍛煉以後，就會逐漸擴大增長起來，變成一種力。這種力是經過鍛煉取得的，
是後天之拙力。這種力形式大、動量滯、變換遲、動的去路直，在技擊方面用起來，因身形動
作大，運動量較強，因此影響內氣的波動，易於浮躁。這近於長拳的練法和要求。
One theory to develop Jin (refined force) is to concentrate Shen, Yi and Qi in one point, and then use this point to drive the movements. After a long time of practice, the movements get bigger and carry a powerful force. Since this force is from diligent practice, it’s called the 後天 (After Heaven) "awkward" force.

The force is powerful, strong and heavy, react and change slowly, done with straight and direct movements.

When you perform martial movements, because the forms and movements are large, you exercise more vigorously.
This effects your Qi to move roughly, making it easy to be restless.

This is the training methods and requirements of the “Long Fist” (translator: i.e. external martial arts).

初練太極拳的人覺得太極拳的練法與上面的練法相似，其實不然。如果按照太極拳的理論要求
，經過一段時間的鍛煉，逐漸把理論與姿勢結合起來，就會很明顯地感覺出來，上面的練法和
要求是與太極拳不同的。練習太極拳的要求，是把本身的神、意、氣化合歸一，融合在一起，
形成一種輕靈圓活之勁兒。這種勁兒是以氣、意混之為主。它的本質是氣，對它的要求是空、
虛、散，而不是集聚的。這就是太極勁兒，又叫做先天勁兒。
When a person first learns Tai Chi Chuan, they may think that Tai Chi Chuan is practiced the same way as described above, but that is not true. If they follow the requirements of the

Tai Chi Chuan theory, after a period of training, combining their understanding of the theory and the form practices, they would begin to understand that the above written methods are not the same as those of the Tai Chi Chuan.

Tai Chi Chuan requires that harmonizing Shen, Yi, and Qi into one, acting together, and become a Jin (refined force) that is light, agile, round and lively.

This type of Jin comes from the mixing of Qi and Yi. Its nature is Qi, and requires Empty, “Transparent,” and “dispersed”, and not gathered.

This is Tai Chi Jin, also known as 先天(“Pre Heaven”) Jin.

Some of what is "shown" in the OP clip relates to what is written here, although explained according to the teachers understanding and ability...

There are aspects the document addresses "Qi, Yi, Shen" ect.

that some may disregard looking for "other" explanations , because they reject the notions from which the theory is built on..
or they have not reached a point where it's a reality for them.

As mentioned this is one line of taiji based on a theory,
that this line follows with results based on the practice for those that follow it.

Others may have a different way of understanding or looking at it,
that works for them....

[LaoDan]

I think that Liang’s demonstration is fine, and I think that he is illustrating what I am talking about (although describing it confusingly). For example, if his intent (yi) is to extend his arms, then he would NOT be using peng, but would instead be advancing (purposely using muscles to change joint angles, rather than using the stretch reflex). Instead of “advancing”, he chooses to demonstrate lujin where the arms are also not purposely extending (not changing the joint angles, but instead he maintains the yi/intent of fullness of the body in all directions, including into the rounded arm, i.e. maintains the use of the stretch reflex and peng, maintains the intent/yi of maintaining the shape; and the spirit/shen is calm and not aggressive, aggression which would have resulted in extending force against the opponent rather than using the stretch reflex…). Here the arms are maintained (the intent/yi is NOT to push against the opponent, but it is simultaneously NOT to collapse, but to REMAIN full) in peng, while the waist is turned, resulting in the opponent being moved without feeling the force that would have come from extending the arms by purposely changing the joint angle by using changes in the muscles of the arm to lengthen or extend that arm.

It is difficult to usefully maintain the stretch reflex. It requires training to maintain rather than oppose (or push back against, or resist…), to maintain resilience rather than resorting to tension... And this maintenance requires shen/spirit, yi/intent, and expressed force (trained “internal” strength or jin, that maintains the ability to use the stretch reflex; something that “external” styles do not train AFAIK).

[everything]

There is lu in peng and peng in lu

Stretch reflex is used in any sport or activity that has a “wind up”

[Quigga]

Seek stillness in movement and movement in stillness. The rest is a matter of personal effort over time

[everything]

The “dispersed” phrase is very confusing.

[Quigga]

When connecting 2 water pools via a ditch or trench, sometimes leaves or dirt, whatever, can gather and result in a block. The removal may be called dispersion.

[everything]

Ah thanks a lot. I was thinking like “scattered” so was like that doesn’t sound good.

[windwalker]

Ah thanks a lot. I was thinking like “scattered” so was like that doesn’t sound good.

One thing you might consider it's a "translation" not literal.

What is it that one is agreeing with if they don't have the ability to "do".

Being a translation it depends a lot of the the translators ability, and understanding.
Or someone of ability and understanding being able to put their feelings into words.

Many of the old Masters while very skilled in their respective arts, maybe not so skilled in the literary traditions
nor able to explain what they could do directly that would make any sense to those not close to gaining the ability of the skill.

Historically some of the highly skilled masters of old, were described as "illiterate".

Often the method of teaching was very direct acquired through hands on practice.

[everything]

If a translator cannot do, it could be a lot more confusing.

[windwalker]

If a translator cannot do, it could be a lot more confusing.

Interesting

You feel the translators are speaking from their own ability or translating what has been written of others ability ?

IME, if one does not have the ability or is close to gaining it.

It may be confusing...


cheers

[everything]

I have no idea in this case. But In the general case, it seems to be an issue.

I read some translations of doing the qigong aspects that seemed to accord with my experience.
Then the translators gave annotations that seemed to indicate they don’t do qigong, think it’s some kind of metaphor, think it’s some muscle, it’s all intent, other half formed ideas where “sink Qi” is descriptive enough.

edit:
on a side note, in a health, non-MA context, unfortunately I've felt "blockage". it feels like qi flows fine, gets to that spot, kinda stops / is stuck. I didn't feel it "disperse". later, it felt fine and "not blocked", but there wasn't some "moment of dispersal" if that makes sense. in a MA context, maybe this is different.

[windwalker]

The “dispersed” phrase is very confusing.

Richards translation

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan

內氣不能憋，要散，散成空虛的氣球
Do not hold back the Internal Qi.
Let it dispersed, like an empty balloon.


通: 養生練法是神、意、氣內舍，不外洩。意氣只通到手心、腳心，不從手指通出體外。技擊的 練法是神、意、氣從手指通出一尺到三尺，注意不能只通出，不收回，必須要收回到體內，否 則就"傷"。要把通出去的內氣畫個孤，沿原路收回體內，再畫弧通出體外，循環往復，這樣內 氣、外氣交換，則能"養"。但功力不高的，往往收不回來，打完拳感到心裡空蕩盪，疲倦乏力 ，這是"傷"的表現。到了練拳的高級階段，無論養生和技擊練法，內外氣交換，都有利於養。 Casting as if a Conduit: the method to nourish life is to internally harmonize Shen, Yi, and Qi and not let them “leak” out.

Yi and Qi should move to the center of the hands and feet, but not follow the fingers to go out the body.

When practicing for fighting, the Shen, Yi, and Qi should project from the fingers one to three feet .

Context, being able to question someone with the ability or having the ability have a lot to do with words chosen or used in the translations.

[Quigga]

The dispersal or scattering doesn't happen all at once, you'd fry your nerves and brain at the very least.

When actually practicing at that time, one's attention usually is sharper than in everyday life. All of those internal feelings are free to change over time and in accordance to how fast the feelings themselves want to harmonize

More likely that you'll feel something flowing within locally, like a gust of wind inside and around your skin. Or like you're standing on the ocean floor (without getting crushed ), then move all that water around you, letting the Yi move the wind/water. Goal being to have the movements synchronous, inside and outside.

Edit: I like Avatar: The Last Airbender Beautiful animated series. Water = Tai Chi, Fire = Xing Yi, Air = Bagua and Earth = Baji.

[Appledog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvJZoEk-NUo

It's a nice video, good skills shown, I just disagree with the teaching style. Relevant quote?

I like how he says he doesn't actually know why. But he can describe from his side what he's doing (yin not yang). and how he shows what happens if he doesn't use the jin connection. "it's a different quality" is his description.

I think Windwalker posted a link to the wei shuren book -- in it is a story along the lines of "Mr. x. watched his teacher for many years and gradually came to understand the method (via observance)". This is in my opinion the greatest weakness of the public school of Tai Chi. For example, one may say that it is important to perform the movement according to "quality x" and then leave the student to figure out what exactly that means -- when in reality the student has no way of knowing or figuring out what it means. This is used as a method to guard the ricebowl, especially in the modern day because students are more likely to assume they know what something means than ask questions (mr. x. 'did not dare to ask what power his teacher used...') but today as there is a prevalence of styles and schools this method is no longer effective in preventing people from learning the so-called 'secret' neigong methods. Actually, because of this the situation has gotten so bad that the veil of secrecy is nowadays more often used to hide a teacher's ignorance -- the fact that they have no idea how to properly train a principle -- even if they can do it because, even though they figured out how to do it, they may be unaware of exactly what led to their breakthrough experience.

I'll give two examples.

One; from a list of principles; 'keep the neck straight,' by whatever means it's taught. ex. in the wei shuren book it is mentioned that a secret teaching is to say the neck rubs against the collar. Okay, but this is still merely describing the quality of movement. In the OP video LDH discusses the 'qualities' of Peng and this is the exact same thing. It is merely describing the movement without actually explaining how to do it. Only after many years of practice and observation will you come to an understanding of what this move may be about.

The reality of this situation is 'there's a daoyin for that' -- and if you know the right exercise, you never need to worry about keeping the neck straight again, and you will understand these principles on a deep, intuitive level. For example even if you keep a plumb line down the neck and rub the collar it will be meaningless if you do not 'open the iron gate' of the neck. But none of this is explained. At a certain point, it no longer matters if a teacher will not or can not do a movement properly, also that he can not or will not teach in a plain and simple way -- the end result is that the student will not learn the skill or grasp the principle. (The exercise is called 'straightening the spine' in which one requirement is both hands press down as if pressing down into waist high water.) If you only had the idea of keeping the neck straight or as if suspended from above you would never get this principle because the break in the neck would be constantly sunk down into the dantian versus opening up in the opposite direction (like a flower). This is a matter of fact the force flowing upwards and then around, which otherwise could only be experienced and then grasped by pure chance. This is why it takes 10, 20 or 30 years to get anywhere in this kind of tai chi school.

I'll give another example. There is a principle not mentioned in this thread such as keeping the knees over the toes. This is an external requirement and actually does nothing for the practitioner because the real problem is elsewhere in the body -- ex. in the inguinal crease. If the crease is misaligned the energy of the body will shoot down through the hip and fly out the knee, passing over the toes. If the crease is properly sunk (ex. 'sitting') the energy will pull the thigh back towards the center, thus pulling the supporting force going through the knees back over the toes, which is the proper meaning of the phrase. However, leaving a beginner to learn this by principle or by observation of the form is dangerous as they cannot understand the internal requirement of sitting unless they have at least a few sessions of hard practice. Otherwise they may develop knee problems. Again, there is a jibengong for this -- a specific neigong exercise which is designed to permanently correct this problem. You may even know it, but without having it pointed out to you making the connection and knowing what to look for are very difficult. Here the exercise is merely dropping body stance done in a special manner with the hands held in front of the body in a certain way to guide the hips (kua). Without learning this fundamental kind of practice and what it is for, the student will not learn how to practice to 'sit' properly in the form until possibly 2 or 3 years or more. It causes all sorts of footwork problems and possibly pain in the knees.

[wayne hansen]

The student dosent jump for him but facilitates what he does
He goes hard when he knows he is meant to and floppy likewise
At no time does he neutralise and look for return
Note how the student goes back in balance then goes into a weak position when he lands
His whole structure goes weak
I don’t know if it is intentional to make his teacher look good or unintentional due to victim mentality
I only know it is there