Tai Chi Applications & Push Hands Principles — Aiping Cheng

[origami_itto]

And in all that, completely lost my point.

Stick adhere join follow, adapt continuously to changing conditions.

Any prescribed set of attacks and defenses is not the thing. Drills are not the thing. Combos are not the thing.

Responding to the opponent as they charge, or between their decision to change and accomplishing the change, or simply dictating the opponents energy and movement for them and delivering as much damage as we'd like in the process is the way.

So any drill or sequence no matter how clever will fall short and is ultimately nothing more than a guidepost along the way. They're reflectors on the side of the road to keep you headed in the right direction.

Can this drill help the student move energy correctly? If so it's a good drill. Or maybe it's a listening drill. Whatever. Point being when do right no can defend.

[Quigga]

Seems like it's time for a lot of writing and a lot of videos Let's see when the website automatically logs me out for some reason.

[Quigga]

I didn't really like what I saw when she was demonstrating... I'll give her the benefit of doubt and say since this is a public presentation of skills, she keeps the real stuff hidden ...

This is why it is so difficult to learn tai chi. The real stuff is practical and straightforward. Listen closely to how she describes controlling her center or using smaller circles than the opponent. How she discusses force sensitivity and brings applications out directly from the form. She is actually quite brilliant. The internal is there but it looks too practical to be internal. I think that is so splendid about this video, how clearly it is explained.

What do you think 'sink the qi to the dantian' has any meaning if you do not yet have any qi to sink? If the yi leads the qi what is being discussed here? Taoist alchemical code is for books. It's how it is actually done which is the key. This lady has studied with top yang chen and sun masters. Do you think she just forgot to show the internals?

Practical and straightforward depend upon what effect you want to achieve A boxer will say the same thing about their jab. It's not difficult to learn Tai Chi. It requires a lot of time, effort, sweat, tears, blood, pain. Not necessarily physical blood leaking out of one's body, but integrating the movement of blood in your movements is essential, hehe. But I'm of the opinion that everybody on here has invested quite substantial amounts of aforementioned things.

Yes, smaller circles can be good. Sometimes it depends more on what you fill these circles with, or rather what you fill the spatial trajectory with as your limbs move along the projected curve(s) or line(s). When not talking about the "filling" of the movement, smaller circles are especially useful for Qinna, close up fighting (shoulder to shoulder) or to destroy/manipulate knees and ankles.

Force sensitivy obviously has levels to it. When talking about very basic levels... I touch my arm to yours and neither feed nor take away force to/from you. We remain at a neutral point. Taken to high level, you get the story of a Master XYZ putting hand on one's shoulder, then running behind you without being noticable and even sommersaulting, backflipping, what not. I'm not at that level of physical conditioning yet, but Qing Gong is an integral part to that.

The more advance levels look different, but can still be called 'force sensitivity'. Yet they look more like precognition of partner's actions. Their action and my reaction form a union, ideally. There's no difference anymore. But crushing, annihilating, more Xing Yi approach, works perfectly fine as well. Until high level practitioners meet - then things look different - but I won't claim I'm one until 50 or 60 years of age.

"Looks too practical to be internal." I disagree with that statement. Is internal supposed to then look impractical?

You know I don't have any Qi? How?

"If the yi leads the qi what is being discussed here?" I don't get this question. What do you want to know?

"Taoist alchemical code is for books. It's how it is actually done which is the key. This lady has studied with top yang chen and sun masters. Do you think she just forgot to show the internals?"

The code is how it's done. There's layers and layers to the classics. What comes to mind right now is: "In the end, everything is Kai/He, opening/closing." IMO a lot of info that's out there is very misleading and even intentionally so. Easiest way to bind students to you and to keep the secrets. Yes, I'm accusing the major IMA families of doing this, or having done this in the past. In the past, definitely. But the dissemination of misinformation creates a lasting effect. I don't claim everyone is doing this, but I also can't be bothered right now to create a differentiating list.

I don't think she forgot to show them. I think there are levels and layers. "Practice flower fist / End up old age having nothing".

[Quigga]

Much love to you as well.

So I'm pretty familiar with Adam Mizner's curriculum. What you'll find is a whole lot of drills like this that come in very handy in non compliant push hands.

In my misunderstanding of taijiquan, the progression is from big circles to small circles to invisible circles. That doesn't mean you get to skip the big and small circles. You've got to build the muscles and neural connection to make the stuff work.

To paraphrase Adam Mizner, you've got to cultivate the taiji creature before you can embody taijiquan.

Then I guess so they say your muscles go away and it's just the neurons, maybe moving somebody else's muscles, who knows, that stuff is beyond me. All I can speak to is what I've experienced and been taught.

Without the jin lu, how do you expect to access jin?

I question the value of drills that are of no value during non-compliant push hands.

Physical processes and changes are required, as in any strenous endeavour. I'd like to donate my body to science so they can cut me up and look at all the fascia and stuff after I'm dead.

Adam saying you need to build the taiji creature. Yeah I love that quote. Saw almost all of his vids.

The muscles don't go away, they serve the same purpose, just much more efficiently and profoundly. IMO

My question would be: without the Jing, how do you want to store Jin at the bones (connect sinews and bones, sinew transformation,..)? Let's meet at the middle and say Jin Lu are gud 2.

[Quigga]

Watching this again some things occur to me.

The way is stick adhere join follow without letting go and without resistance. The martial application of taijiquan in my experience and understanding does not stray from this. Something else may be a perfectly effective and perhaps contextually superior technique, but it is not taijiquan. Tai Chi is the grand ultimate. Yes, I'm going there now If there's something better than that, it's not Tai Chi.

The only way to achieve this truly is formlessness. You must adapt and change to the opponent to neutralize and control them. Yes, but you still need and keep your own form, i.e. body.

It requires, and we say this stuff like catechism, application of the precisely correct technique at precisely the correct timing.

Okay yeah duh, that's just obvious, except in taijiquan no it's literally the only way to get this stuff to work. Off by a millimeter or a microsecond you may as well be next door next week for all the good it's going to do you. I disagree. If you don't have the same iron body that hardcore Okinawan karate dudes have, you're doing it wrong. I'm still doing it wrong, just trying to do less and less wrong every day

And just like she says in the video we attack the opponents weak spot. Yes, but sometimes you just have to take what you can get and make the best out of it

Okay, duh, that makes perfect sense right.

Except again, this is the only way to make this stuff work. Exact right time, exact right technique, attacking exact right target.That's like a woman who's only in the mood when everything is aboslutely purrrfect~~~. I get what you're saying my dude, just trying to keep it light hearted

Oh, is that all there is to it?

Yeah, that's just the basic requirements to get some kind of functionality. Like knocking on the door outside the courtyard level of accomplishment IMHO. Who's there?

I dunno maybe I'm being hyperbolic.

Invisible circles, oh, I miss my Austin push hands players.

The first time I met Tal Ladecky we actually engaged in of those almost completely motionless battles. Our skills were basically an even match and we could each tell that almost any obvious movement would mean the other guy got us.

For ten minutes we just adjusted our pressure and leverage against each other, trying to slide around and get a grip to use while denying the other a grip of their own.

And not in the two bulls contending fashion, obviously, that would be pretty easy to deal with.

Externally, you wouldn't have seen a thing, but we silently communicated and in stillness contested and man I wish I could get back there again. Tal and I worked together a lot and seemed to keep pushing each other a little farther as we discovered and tested new things. Could never really recapture the magic of that first meetup feeling each other out though. Miss that mofo. Yes, wordless exchanges are cool

Anyhow my Quigga, in my opinion you can't neglect the roots and expect the branches. The skills and abilities come from the bitter work. You're right and I agree. Eat bitter til becomes sweet.

You need ting. Adam says you can only ting yourself, but that leads to ding. And with ding you can respond.

One of the coolest things about taijiquan is how it recruits things that would otherwise be standing around as useless as a mall cop. I thought that was a great movie

With ding, comprehending energy, fed by ting, listening energy, we can adapt to micro movements in our opponents posture purely through motor reflex. The neurons in our belly can receive,process, and respond in large part without involving the conscious mind at all.

An octopus has about 500 million neurons in its entire body and it's one of the most intelligent animals on earth. The enteric nervous system in humans which resides physically around the same area as the dantien has about 500 million neurons in it.

That's a lot of processing power. Imagine cultivating and harnessing that pure raw animal intelligence. Sure it's mostly busy regulating the gut, but if you increase the capacity seems like you could still get some benefit...
Didn't know all of that, sounds cool

[Quigga]

And in all that, completely lost my point.

Stick adhere join follow, adapt continuously to changing conditions.

Any prescribed set of attacks and defenses is not the thing. Drills are not the thing. Combos are not the thing.

Responding to the opponent as they charge, or between their decision to change and accomplishing the change, or simply dictating the opponents energy and movement for them and delivering as much damage as we'd like in the process is the way.

So any drill or sequence no matter how clever will fall short and is ultimately nothing more than a guidepost along the way. They're reflectors on the side of the road to keep you headed in the right direction.

Can this drill help the student move energy correctly? If so it's a good drill. Or maybe it's a listening drill. Whatever. Point being when do right no can defend.

Hua hua hua, pow pow pow, kabow. Huaaa~. Jin. Hua Jin, God bless you.

The thing is the thing, man. It is what it is.

[everything]

The code is how it's done.

This sounds exactly right.

misinformation

A lot of things that are said maybe look like "The Matrix" of scrolling green text and shapes. Looking at "code" from the outside doesn't really help. You have to "get" the code. Then, "classic" instructions make more sense. But maybe you make progress, maybe you don't.

Others maybe "saw" the "code" and their brains with all those neurons drew patterns they think are there. Then they are potentially the ones who propagate misinformation. This isn't really an onion. If you stay on the outside layer, there aren't really more layers. It will be a fake, hollow onion. Just scrolling green gibberish.

Another bad analogy is if you don't know how to swim and you learn a bunch of movements on land but you don't get in the water and "get" that feeling, you won't learn how to swim. You can do a bunch of movements on land. It's more scrolling gibberish, though.

[origami_itto]

My question would be: without the Jing, how do you want to store Jin at the bones (connect sinews and bones, sinew transformation,..)? Let's meet at the middle and say Jin Lu are gud 2.

I don't comprehend "storing jin". Jin is the result of a process and ephemeral.

Jing (sexual essence) should be doing its thing getting transmuted into qi and then shen.

Qi, likewise I don't believe is a substance. You've got v02 max, the amount of atp and o2 your body can use and then what I believe is an undefined capacity that represents the amount of your body you can comprehend and control simultaneously. Then of course the quality of the movement itself is important as well as the intent. We cultivate these through clean air, nutritious food, exercise, and meditative practices.

What I know of the yi jin jing (book) is that the theory in the Jing(book) involves stimulating the Jing(sexual essence) to refine it into qi and then that qi saturates the marrow, therein providing the benefit. Jin isn't something you manufacture and collect.

The jin lu, "energy paths" are cultivated through practice. This involves recruiting and strengthening the white tissue. Ligaments and tendons. The slow growers. Abandoning the usual muscles.

This is why I believe traditional strength training is a mostly a waste of time for taijiquan. You need enough muscle to be able to perform the movements, that's it. The power that makes it work is different. Feels different is generated different, it's just different. The direct application of muscular strength is li, and can be easily manipulated by a taijiquan exponent's jin.

The only way to achieve this truly is formlessness. You must adapt and change to the opponent to neutralize and control them. Yes, but you still need and keep your own form, i.e. body

Well sure, that's the difference between sung and floppy noodle wet tofu taijiquan. Yielding isn't giving up. It's a handshake. We change our shape to balance the opponents force and neutralize it. Then we can take control. Yield to neutralize, follow to lead.

Okay yeah duh, that's just obvious, except in taijiquan no it's literally the only way to get this stuff to work. Off by a millimeter or a microsecond you may as well be next door next week for all the good it's going to do you. I disagree. If you don't have the same iron body that hardcore Okinawan karate dudes have, you're doing it wrong. I'm still doing it wrong, just trying to do less and less wrong every day

As always I only speak of my own experience. You can think of the timing and technique as two circles floating around the screen and you are fighting them with your joysticks to get them to line up so you can push the fire button. Fight night 3 on Xbox had a "get back up from knockdown" mechanic that worked like that. The targeting display on fighter jets in movies is similar.

So the closer you can get those circles the more energy you're going to deliver to your target. Power leaks from structure problems and incorrect timing reduce the effectiveness of whatever you're doing. The difference between a "clean" issue and off by a millimeter or microsecond is profound. You've got to work a lot harder to get a lot less done. The business of cultivation is gaining the ability to line those circles up better and faster and have more firepower available when they're ready.

And some things just don't work at all. Qinna for example, completely useless unless you've got the conditions perfect. The technique is a key that only opens the correct lock. We don't insist we're going to open the lock in front of us with the key in our hand. We grab the correct key from the ring and use that.

And I'm saying technique but what I believe is "technique no-technique". We don't insist on a particular technique, we learn to control our bodies immaculately, then learn how to affect others (greatly informed by the knowledge gained during the first step) and practice, a lot, with partners. It takes four hands.

In application as we adapt to changing conditions our goal for our opponent informs our intention. When done correctly our energy should just slide into a slot, so to speak, and then we release into the technique-no-technique.

Like screwing in a coax cable to the back of the TV when you can't see it. You feel around till the threads line up and it just spins on effortlessly. Little bit off, if you insist, and you can ruin both sides of the connection.

When it's wrong all the strength in the world is only thing to make things worse, but when do right no can defend.

[origami_itto]

Forgot something,

And just like she says in the video we attack the opponents weak spot. Yes, but sometimes you just have to take what you can get and make the best out of it

Well we take what we're given, yes. We establish contact and in perfect embodiment that is our channel, no matter what it is.

But that doesn't mean that if the opponent only presents us with the top of the head as a target we should punch it with a closed fist. That's a good way to break some bones in your hand. Put a palm on to the back of their head and push down to attack the weak spots in their structure. Or better yet, put it on their forehead and brow mop but try not to break their neck.

Likewise the better you are at taijiquan the better you can attack past the point of contact. You join at the point of contact then manipulate the contiguous tension from that point of contact through their structure to the break in their connectivity. As you improve you can more and more effectively create the tension you need which is pretty critical when working with better players.

Or maybe they channel it pretty well and you can't find the break. That's where you look for the lines.

Or maybe they are able to move their weak line faster than you can find it. At that point I'm pretty much stuck with establishing another contact point to induce double weighting or something to force a fault I can exploit.

misinformation

Take what's useful, leave the rest. In a lot of ways this stuff changes as our bodies change. Things that made no sense or were impossible for me to experience at one time are just how my body functions now. As I continue to develop I expect that trend to continue. But until I reached a certain point some information and exercises were as useful to me as a bicycle is to a fish. Ymmv.

As always my single greatest joy is being proven wrong so I do hope, everything, that one day we can touch hands and you can show me the error of my ways.

[everything]

one day we can touch hands and you can show me the error of my ways.

I'm a beginner: my toe is in the water, but I can't swim. That's enough to know my swimming motions are silly. I gave up doing "external" push hands and grappling so don't even have the outer layer. if I get an "engine" and "jin lu" pathways, perhaps the outer part will be interesting again. hopefully one of us will get somewhere first and can help the other person for sure. Same with Quigga.

[everything]

random thought. xingyiquan, baguazhang, yiquan, others are said to be "internal". they don't seem to talk a lot about "following", though.

[everything]

random other thoughts. i visited an "internal" teacher with sublime external skills. i mean, tyson, fedor, mayweather, jr., messi, jordan type skills. at that level, who cares about "internal" if MA is your interest. but i visited some "internal" teachers and if you "touch hands", you don't really have control: there isn't "changing" you can do. this is a "different quality" as liang de hua put it. as a beginner with no skill, you can still feel the effect on you just in a polite demo. do they have "external MA" skill? I have no idea. it doesn't really matter on many levels.

[origami_itto]

random thought. xingyiquan, baguazhang, yiquan, others are said to be "internal". they don't seem to talk a lot about "following", though.

Taijiquan is taijiquan, xingyiquan is xingyiquan, and baguazhang is baguazhang. I haven't studied the other two at enough depth to definitively say what they don't contain, but I would be extremely surprised if they didn't have the concept expressed somewhere. Wang Sifu has described it as a component of shuai jao here though I believe he prefers different terms.

[Appledog]

You know I don't have any Qi? How?

"If the yi leads the qi what is being discussed here?" I don't get this question. What do you want to know?

I meant 'you' in general and it led into the question. "Sink the Qi into the dantian". What does this mean? The problem with the video and the populace is the people don't know what they're looking at.

The code is how it's done. There's layers and layers to the classics. What comes to mind right now is: "In the end, everything is Kai/He, opening/closing." IMO a lot of info that's out there is very misleading and even intentionally so. Easiest way to bind students to you and to keep the secrets. Yes, I'm accusing the major IMA families of doing this, or having done this in the past. In the past, definitely. But the dissemination of misinformation creates a lasting effect. I don't claim everyone is doing this, but I also can't be bothered right now to create a differentiating list.

I don't think she forgot to show them. I think there are levels and layers. "Practice flower fist / End up old age having nothing".

No, not everything is kai-he. That's marketing and secret keeping. If you want to accuse the major ima families of keeping secrets thats one thing, but assuming you would be justified, then when someone who has credentials comes and explains something to you, why do you respond with "flower fist..."? Taiji does not teach so many forms only for you to stand there and bounce people out without hardly moving. You have to move in order to apply technique. Since you're a fellow taoist I'll urge you to watch the video again with an open mind. Once you see it it cannot be unseen

[origami_itto]

random other thoughts. i visited an "internal" teacher with sublime external skills. i mean, tyson, fedor, mayweather, jr., messi, jordan type skills. at that level, who cares about "internal" if MA is your interest. but i visited some "internal" teachers and if you "touch hands", you don't really have control: there isn't "changing" you can do. this is a "different quality" as liang de hua put it. as a beginner with no skill, you can still feel the effect on you just in a polite demo. do they have "external MA" skill? I have no idea. it doesn't really matter on many levels.

I don't get the obsession with internal vs external. Taijiquan is taijiquan. You want to learn from a meditation teacher, a qigong teacher, a martial arts teacher, or someone who does all three? Go learn from them. What are you cultivating? What's your goal? Find somebody who can do what you want to do and follow their advice.

If your "internal" skills can't produce a discernable "external" effect I struggle to see the point in the practice. If you collapse under pressure like a tin can what are you even doing with your time?

So yeah, no, I just seek taijiquan and yes when it's on it's on like that, you're like a surly little kitten in the hands of a grizzled old veterinarian. Even if your cute little claws could land they couldn't break the skin enough to draw blood.

But that's built on stick-adhere-join-follow.

Then again, go roll with somebody like GrahamB and it might feel remarkably similar, built on completely different concepts.