Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

[everything]

I think there are two relatable aspects to what he says. One is just the feeling. If you don't feel the "hydraulic" feeling, it will be hard to understand why he makes an alternative description attempt. Theorizing on someone's theory and having no idea why he theorized or what it was about: too meta. It's like teenagers all explaining sex when none of them know anything about it (all the discussions here and elsewhere are mostly like this in general). The second is it's nice to try to use "reductionism" to see if we can explain something that's kind of inexplicable. Practically, I find it doesn't help at all, but I certainly understand WHY people want to try.

I'll try to give one more analogy I read somewhere. If we use a reductionist approach as we're tempted to do and is so useful for most things, we can take apart a car, find a broken part, repair or replace it. But if we try that with a computer, all we'll see is circuits. We can't "see" the software. It's invisible to us. That's the cool part doing the cool work, though. Things are a little like that. The real work is the software. Most people want to work on the mechanical engineering or the shell to "build" their computer.

[origami_itto]

Something to consider is that feelings ain't facts.

Human senses are garbage. They're lies and averages. We can learn to use them pretty well but as far as discovering Truth with nothing but sensation as a guide, you may as well look at the stars with a telescope covered in Vaseline.

We can do amazing things with flawed or limited information, I'm not denying that, but, well, as Thomas Aquinas kind of said

"The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."

Anything real is verifiable through instrumentation if we know where and how to look. The software starts as source code and is compiled into binary, it's loaded into memory and then registers and is processed and produces output. All of this is observable and understandable in every state, if you know how and where to look.

And you know how to interpret what you see.

You can't accurately measure a system from inside the system. This is a Truth. You can only get pieces.

So we use the sensation to guide our inquiry but we don't just extrapolate from the sensation to produce a satisfying answer. We hypothesize, test, observe, repeat until every atom in the universe has been sieved and categorized and we find that mote of justice and mercy.

If a thing is real it can be measured.

[everything]

Well some of the fluids in the body are non Newtonian.
Blood,mucous, sinosinovial fluid do change their viscosity under certain kinds of pressure.
I'm not sure precisely how you would weaponize that.

don't know either. I understand it'd be desirable to get to some kind of "objectivity". I just doubt (not in some pessimistic way) we can get there any time soon. there's just too much. what is life? we think we turn to ashes, but physics says energy isn't created or destroyed. our "energy" is transformed to something else. is this "conservation of qi"? I have no idea. surely we know way less than we think we do (And people on the internet seem to think they know everything. people here on rsf come across as if they are all Yang Luchan and are seemingly so certain. I don't understand that. ).

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

[origami_itto]

It's all about what you're seeking. If you want to dwell in the mystery, by all means follow your bliss. You can achieve much with this model.

If you want to understand precisely what exact physical processes are occurring when you participate in certain phenomenon, you have to burst the bubble a little. The magic evaporates.

But what you are left with in its place is knowledge you can use to build something greater out of that foundation. You can discern clearly what serves the goal and what is a waste of time. You can separate fact from superstition.

A point to ponder is that, particularly in spiritual studies, a mystery is not something unknowable. It's something that must be experienced to be known.

In the gnostic and hermetic traditions, initiates are exposed to information in a carefully controlled fashion, often within the context of a dramatic presentation in which the initiate plays a part where others speak for them.

The experience is intended to begin the transformation of the initiate and the awakening of knowledge within them.

Many initiates can testify to the power of the experience. This is the foundation of lineage.

But they were created by other human beings that understood the systems they were tinkering with.

[everything]

I think that matches my experiences. I've been "pushed" but I really have no idea how. People like Mizner or Liang De Hua just say they "fang song" more. Same thing I was told. That is really hard to follow imo. It seems impossible to explain. I hope one day it's possible.

[origami_itto]

I think that matches my experiences. I've been "pushed" but I really have no idea how. People like Mizner or Liang De Hua just say they "fang song" more. Same thing I was told. That is really hard to follow imo. It seems impossible to explain. I hope one day it's possible.

What you see on youtube is the commercial. In just seven days we can make you a man.

The system he's selling focuses on causes not effects. Exercises cause physical changes in the body that unlock different ways of using it. Until the physical changes have occurred you can't produce the jin any more than a bird with clipped wings can fly. You can flap and hop all you want but forget about trying to fly.

The attitude of many seekers seems to be that if they can discover the secret way to hold their mouth they can get superpowers.

In my opinion, the only secret is practice. Do the exercises and cultivate yourself.

Sure there are sneaky tactics and techniques if you're talking about fighting, but if you don't have the jin you're not doing taijiquan, and if your body hasn't changed then you don't have the jin, and if you don't do the exercises your body will not change.

Causes lead to effects. There are no shortcuts. Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't get his gains thinking about weights. Yang Lu Chan didn't acquire his skill just thinking about qi. They did the exercises to transform their bodies. Same thing with Adam Mizner and Liang DeHua. The patter and showmanship and spectacular skills are just to get you in the door. The real work is bitter, painful, and boring.

[wayne hansen]

If you have pushed with someone true fang song you don’t have to ask why
That is the main reason pushing is there
To pass it on
Literally
From hand to hand
If your teacher dosent have it you can’t get it on your own
The reason they can push their own students is they not only don’t teach it
They teach the opposite

[Quigga]

Sad

[everything]

I think that matches my experiences. I've been "pushed" but I really have no idea how. People like Mizner or Liang De Hua just say they "fang song" more. Same thing I was told. That is really hard to follow imo. It seems impossible to explain. I hope one day it's possible.

What you see on youtube is the commercial. In just seven days we can make you a man.

The system he's selling focuses on causes not effects. Exercises cause physical changes in the body that unlock different ways of using it. Until the physical changes have occurred you can't produce the jin any more than a bird with clipped wings can fly. You can flap and hop all you want but forget about trying to fly.

The attitude of many seekers seems to be that if they can discover the secret way to hold their mouth they can get superpowers.

In my opinion, the only secret is practice. Do the exercises and cultivate yourself.

Sure there are sneaky tactics and techniques if you're talking about fighting, but if you don't have the jin you're not doing taijiquan, and if your body hasn't changed then you don't have the jin, and if you don't do the exercises your body will not change.

Causes lead to effects. There are no shortcuts. Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't get his gains thinking about weights. Yang Lu Chan didn't acquire his skill just thinking about qi. They did the exercises to transform their bodies. Same thing with Adam Mizner and Liang DeHua. The patter and showmanship and spectacular skills are just to get you in the door. The real work is bitter, painful, and boring.

totally agree.

it's unfortunate it's a little boring.

edit: closed the quote box correctly