Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

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Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby marvin8 on Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:37 pm

James Chan
Jan 23, 2022

James Chan of Philadelphia interviews Robert Chuckrow on the meaning, value, and techniques of ‘song’ (松 or 鬆 in Chinese) in practicing Tai Chi (Taiji). This Zoom interview is an extension of my translation from the Chinese on ‘song’ by Professor Cheng Man-ch’ing, Robert’s teacher from 1970 to 1975.

My translation is a one-page PDF file you can download from this link: http://taichimag.org/TCC&IA-no64%20page%2022%20CMC%20Song.pdf The article is published in the online magazine The Journal of Tai Chi Union of Great Britain (http://www.taichimag.org), Issue No. 64, page 22.

Robert Chuckrow, Ph.D., is a trained experimental physicist, a college professor, and a Tai Chi expert with more than 50 years of experience. He has published many books and articles on Tai Chi which you can view on his website: http://www.Chuckrowtaichi.com. His newest book, Tai Chi Concepts and Experiments is available on Amazon.com at: https://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chi-Concep.... Robert said to me: "If you want to see song, watch a sleeping cat."

James Chan (陈华江), Ph.D., is an international marketing consultant who has advised many U.S. firms export their products and services to China and Asia since 1983. To see his detailed background, go to: https://www.linkedin.com/in/asiamarke....

Email James Chan at: [email protected].


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7TgQiW-KNs
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby everything on Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:24 am

seems like he's made a lot of progress over the years and has written a lot.

he has some theory (from a phd physicist) on what may be happening when we try to practice pengjin here.
http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/PracticingPengJin.html

TLDR: there may be some electrical/neural excitation of cells that leads to fluid movement within the cells. not enough neural electrical activity for muscular contractions. he calls it "expansiveness" or "expansive strength" instead of "contractive strength" (muscles contracting).

For people who want modern vocabulary, hypotheses for possible physiological mechanisms, maybe that will help.
Last edited by everything on Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby LaoDan on Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:52 am

I could not get past Chuckrow’s speculations about muscle physiology, so I could not watch the remainder of the interview. When he “theorizes” about physiology, he totally loses me (e.g. ~8’+ into the video). My impression is that he approaches his theories based on his knowledge of physics only, without researching how muscle cells actually work.

I speculate that he bought into the idea that TJQ should not use muscle contraction at all, and developed ideas about how force can be transmitted without using muscle contractions. From a physics perspective, it may make sense to talk about waves instead [or muscle expansion rather than contraction] since there is so much water in the human body. But he then talks about some mechanism where the nerves, instead of activating a muscle contraction, cause the cell’s water to turn into a thick gel! What??

I do not know how he thinks the physiology of cells works, or if he understands how nerve impulses act on muscle cells to trigger contractions, or if he knows the differences between fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscles, or if he even recognizes that there may be different types of muscle development between sprinters and long distance athletes. He does not appear to have read up on any of these topics.

Cells function by the diffusion of chemicals throughout the cells, and if the water suddenly became a thick gel, then that cell could no longer function and would likely die. Nerve impulses do not directly contact the actin or myosin proteins (or the water inside the cells), but instead they depolarize the cell membrane and trigger the release of stored calcium ions that diffuse through the cell and bind to the contractile mechanism….

Chuckrow appears, to me, to be speculating about subjects that he fails to educate himself about, in order to force some mechanism to fit his knowledge of physics, and his dogma about TJQ.
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby everything on Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:16 am

Not sure I’d go that far, but agree
- one physicist may not understand cells
- one physicist may not even know much of physics: it’s a giant topic if it covers all laws of the natural world

As a non scientist:
His idea is interesting to me, but it doesn’t explain things like fajin or macro cosmic orbit and much more.
Perhaps it partially explains some sensations in one person only.
That to me is way better than “oh it’s fascia” or “oh do eccentric contractions”.
The sensations can feel “electric” or “fluid like” or “magnetic” or “heat” so at least his idea goes in some of that direction.
Personally I don’t need the speculation. Qi, meridians, etc is ok. But some people want/need some kind of modern idea.
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby LaoDan on Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:17 am

I think that Chuckrow’s long time experience with TJQ, and his knowledge of physics, are valuable to the TJQ community, and I like that he transmits his understanding for others to hear. When he is talking about physics (vectors, force of the tendons being very high due to how close they attach to the fulcrum, etc.), his information seems like it may be useful for practitioners; but PHYSICS is not PHYSIOLOGY. Since I do not specialize in physics, his perspective is welcome, but I do not necessarily take his word for things without checking for myself to see if what he says fits whatever general knowledge (simple or basic; or potentially specialized or advanced) that I can research and understand.

He does not seem to make even a cursory search to understand whether or not his theories or hypotheses make realistic or plausible sense, especially when they depend on knowledge that is not in his specialty (e.g., physiology rather than physics).

Physics may indicate that an expanded thick gel can have great outward strength, and that this strength would not need to rely on force from muscle contractions, but he does not appear to look into whether the water in the cells could become an expanded thick gel (or how it could return to a liquid phase), how the nerve impulses could possibly do this, what the consequences to the cells would be, etc. Therefore, he ends up with theories/hypotheses that are based on fantasy/magic.

I just want people to reasonably question the information from “experts” (including any information that I present), regardless of how long their source has practiced TJQ, how many books they have written, and even if they are a scientist (in whatever field of specialization).
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby BruceP on Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:06 pm

Re: the "thick gel" thing. Not sure what that's all about, but...

I've seen a video where CXW appeared to go fully dilatant when he was ambushed with a hard shove. No warning or time to brace/plant/prepare before he was hit by what looked like 100 percent of whatever power the other guy could muster. It's still by far the most impressive demonstration of spontaneous tjq I've ever seen.
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby origami_itto on Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:10 pm

Well some of the fluids in the body are non Newtonian.
Blood,mucous, sinosinovial fluid do change their viscosity under certain kinds of pressure.
I'm not sure precisely how you would weaponize that.
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby marvin8 on Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:17 pm

LaoDan wrote:I could not get past Chuckrow’s speculations about muscle physiology, so I could not watch the remainder of the interview. When he “theorizes” about physiology, he totally loses me (e.g. ~8’+ into the video). My impression is that he approaches his theories based on his knowledge of physics only, without researching how muscle cells actually work.

I get some of the same feelings. I haven't read all of Chuckrow’s writings.

LaoDan wrote:Physics may indicate that an expanded thick gel can have great outward strength, and that this strength would not need to rely on force from muscle contractions, but he does not appear to look into whether the water in the cells could become an expanded thick gel (or how it could return to a liquid phase), how the nerve impulses could possibly do this, what the consequences to the cells would be, etc. Therefore, he ends up with theories/hypotheses that are based on fantasy/magic.

I just want people to reasonably question the information from “experts” (including any information that I present), regardless of how long their source has practiced TJQ, how many books they have written, and even if they are a scientist (in whatever field of specialization).

I found his Tai Chi Concepts and Experiments on the interwebz. An excerpt regarding water in cells:

Robert Chuckrow on April 1, 2021 wrote:A Promising Mechanism for Expansive Strength

Dr. Gerald Pollack has been directing research on hitherto disregarded properties of water and cellular phenomena at Washington State University for decades and has discovered an important feature based on the restructuring of water under certain conditions. Watch his video on some unusual aspects of water.8

Under the action of electricity, water can form a gel with properties of strength and extension. Because these properties are not similarly displayed by the commonly recognized phases of water, namely, liquid, solid, and gas, Pollack has called this state “the fourth phase of water.” He has been able to shed light on a number of phenomena displayed by water that are otherwise unexplained.

Our cells and intracellular fluids are primarily water, and bioelectricity abounds in our bodies. Pollack’s research suggests that our bioelectricity can restructure water in cells and tissues, resulting in their expansion.9,10

I have been pondering Dr. Pollack’s research for the past several years. The concept that water in the cells can be made to expand and change in structure is quite satisfying because it closely matches what I experience with expansive strength; namely, I feel that I am sending electricity to my tissues, and it feels as though the water within is expanding as a consequence. In fact, before learning of Dr. Pollack’s research, I experienced those effects for quite some time and described them as “hydraulic pressure.”11 Moreover, the writings of the Taiji Classics also utilize water analogies.

If the expansion of intra- and intercellular water can result from the application of bioelectricity, it nicely explains why expansive strength can be sustained without fatigue longer than for muscular contraction: aside from the chemical energy required for its neural activation, muscular contraction requires additional amounts of chemical energy from stores of glycogen. Then, muscular contraction results in the production of the irritating waste products and restricts the circulation of blood, which transports oxygen and nutrients into muscles and nerves and waste products out. Chemicals required for contraction soon become depleted, and irritating waste products build up. These factors limit the time that contraction can be sustained.

On the other hand, if expansion is based on an intrinsic property of water, it may only require bioelectricity for its activation—no chemical energy other than that for activation is needed, and no irritating waste products would be expected to result. In fact, a wonderful byproduct of expansion is that circulation of blood is not restricted but actually increased, and there is good reason to expect the accompanying bioelectricity to be therapeutic.

8. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-T7tCMUDXU.
9. Gerald H. Pollack, Cells, Gels, and the Engines of Life (Seattle, WA: Ebner and Sons
Publishing, 2001).
10. Gerald H. Pollack, The Fourth Phase of Water (Seattle, WA: Ebner and Sons Publishing,
2013).
11. Robert Chuckrow, Tai Chi Dynamics, 8, 9, 19, 47


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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby origami_itto on Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:21 pm

Adam Mizner has described his jins as hydraulic power
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby everything on Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:54 pm

origami_itto wrote:Adam Mizner has described his jins as hydraulic power


I like this description. I don't have jin, but the qi subjective sensation can feel "hydraulic" in part.

Physics

I take/read it as "mysterious phenomenon x" happens. Scientist A has experienced it, but there isn't any scientific knowledge on the topic or instruments to gather further data. Forms a hypothesis. Cannot prove or disprove. At least with this scientist, he did some informal experiments and concluded he couldn't detect what he suspected he might be able to (which neither proves nor disproves anything; it could be that current instruments cannot help, or that he scans for the wrong indicators).

We know to move, our brain directs our muscles - the brain sends electrical impulses and chemical signals through our nervous system, and we move. We know cells are a fundamental unit of life. We "know" yi leads qi, a "life force", and we anecdotally observe "jin" is different from "li", so it seems reasonable to look into the nervous system and cells for some explanations. Physics underpins other sciences, so in matters of matter/energy, it also seems reasonable to expect physics (as opposed to one physicist) might eventually help.
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I ilke his "electricity" and "water" idea. It matches the "hydraulic" description.
Last edited by everything on Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby LaoDan on Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:39 am

I have heard the ANALOGY of hydraulics before. Analogies can be useful for picturing the feelings that practitioners may have.

My perspective is that practitioners do not FEEL the use of their muscles, and therefore they search for some way to understand what is happening. Unfortunately, from my perspective, this has led to the dogma that muscles are not being used. But not USING muscles is different from not FEELING the use of muscles!

When the dogma of not using muscles is believed, then one may come up with “hydraulics” (without understanding of the necessary physiology that would be required to move liquid in a confined space under pressure…, or if or how a human body could/would do this…), or “protoplasmic streaming” (Chuckrow, 2010), or an “expanded thick gel” (Chuckrow, 2022), etc.

What we can FEEL is different from what may actually be happening. For example, Chuckrow talks about muscles tiring with the buildup of waste products (e.g., lactic acid), and that maintained strength cannot therefore rely on these muscles. But he ignores slow-twitch muscles that are very efficient and do not lead to muscle failure or soreness while functioning. It happens that these slow-twitch muscles are also smaller bundles, and much more difficult to feel. Just because one does not FEEL them working, does not mean that they are NOT being used!

When practitioners practice standing post zhan zhuang, for example, the fast-twitch muscles, those muscles that one can feel because they are larger bundles and more superficially located in the body than are the slow-twitch muscles, tire quickly. Once these muscles fail, and one finds that they can still maintain the posture, they then think that muscles are no longer being used. But I would argue that muscles ARE still being used, just muscles that are different than those that we are normally aware of.

If one is able to explain the sensations experienced during zhan zhuang (or TJQ practice during both forms and applications) using normal physiological processes, then there is no need to invoke “qi” or “hydraulics” or “protoplasmic streaming” or “thick gels” or “waves” or any other “magical” thinking. This is my personal preference, but you are free to use any analogy that helps your practice. I do not know if “fascia” or “eccentric contractions” (etc.) can entirely explain the complex qualities that TJQ produces (although they may be contributing factors), but at least these theories are working with the normal qualities of our bodies.
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby everything on Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:49 am

Qi is normal but may take a little time to feel. Whatever it is, it’s not an analogy or metaphor or a muscle or whatever.

Li is normal. Fascia or slow twitch or fast twitch is fine.

Jin is not normal. I can’t do it. It takes training. It’s not like a refined “external” action, some of which I can sometimes do.

That’s probably why people are so confused. Any of us can do a good movement every so often. I play with ex pros who can hit a perfect pass without trying. Every 1/100 times I can hit that pass on a dime. This isn’t jin. If that’s what people think no wonder they go down a rabbit hole of other muscles (although that still makes no sense). I can’t explain it. I haven’t heard any teachers explain in some better way than using the original words. These hypotheses clearly fall short. It’s “magic” but not “magical thinking” because nobody can explain the “technology”. “Different quality” as Liang De Hua said is a good phrase to me. “Hydraulic” is just a description of this different quality. Normal super refined motions don’t have this feeling. Perhaps “smooth” is a great word for those.
Last edited by everything on Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:02 am

His point was not about feeling jin, qi or anything else. His whole point was about body awareness, that you need to learn how to feel yourself.
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:23 pm

His book on tai chi is the only one where I have given away my copy
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Re: Robert Chuckrow on Song in Tai Chi

Postby co-lee on Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:02 pm

My primary teachers were classmates with Chuckrow at Shr Jung in NYC. They spoke of him with fondness for the good times they had together. His name didn't come up when talking about the skilled folks there. Of course, we all hope to make progress over the years and it's been a very long time. I've never met him in person so have no direct experience.

Looking at his writing, I think Chuckrow shows a lot of misunderstanding about the physics and mechanics that describe taijiquan. (Like him, my education was in physics and like him, I've taught as adjunct faculty.) The pure physics stuff has the flavor of "imagine this cow is a perfect sphere falling thru space" and really doesn't even attempt to look at the complexity of movement involved. And this latest protoplasmic streaming and elastic gel stuff is just embarrassing: physicists are taught to do quick simplified models and "back of the envelope" calculations to decide if something is plausible and worth exploring. I can't imagine a back of the envelope calculation that shows how sufficient force could be generated via sloshing about of the cell fluids or reconfiguring water molecules to transfer an impulse into another body that results in the kinds of real acceleration of real mass we see in taijiquan.

Ideas like "no force" and "using waves to issue" can be helpful in describing the feeling of good taijiquan and may help students get that feeling. But, c'mon Bob, F=ma and all that. You're not gonna be accelerating any body-weight masses via motion of intercellular fluid., by sloshing all your lymph at someone, or by using mental imagery to send "electricity" into your cells to "reconfigure" the water molecules in them. Jeez ...

I probably have his book around somewhere since he sent it to my teacher when he published it and we ended up inheriting all that. I'll get right to working my way thru it now ... 8-)
Last edited by co-lee on Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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