Silk Reeling Energy — Chan Si Jin (缠丝劲): Hai Yang

[robert]

Actually, from my point of view it doesn't matter if you have single exercises or not and who started with single silk reeling exercises. It must be in the form and it is what Chen Xin described in his book.

I agree, but Chen Xin's book does describe a silk reeling exercise.

HJS writes about CF teaching him a seated silk reeling exercise.

Even when sitting, he would cross his hands and rotate them. He told me to do the same. At the time, I did not understand what this was supposed to achieve. Later on, I realized that this practice was used to be aware of the silk reeling.

In my lineage every silk reeling exercise we practice is extracted from the form. It's just something like a drill and the result must be reintegrated into the form once you "got" it.

I've been taught the same and I often take small movements of the form and repeat them so they are silk reeling exercises.

[Urs Krebs]

I agree, but Chen Xin's book does describe a silk reeling exercise.

As far as i understand what Chen Xin wrote, he described the principle of silk reeling and not a single exercise and how it should be applied when executing the form. With all other things i agree.

[robert]

As far as i understand what Chen Xin wrote, he described the principle of silk reeling and not a single exercise and how it should be applied when executing the form. With all other things i agree.

From an English translation.

A Taiji student trying to master the silk-reeling method of energy regeneration should practice the following exercise:

He then describes the exercise. FWIW.

[wayne hansen]

Does Chen really describe silk reeling or is he just saying when u r sitting don’t be idle keep moving your hands

[Urs Krebs]

I'm quite sure that this translation is not correct. Beside the book that you were citing from (and which i also have, page 100) i have a very precise translation which is quite different. It really doesn't describe one single exercise but how the method should be applied (page 206, Kommentare zu den grafischen Erläuterungen zum Taijiquan des Chen-Clans). Maybe the user "Taiwandeutscher" may shed some light on this as he is the translator of the german version which from my point of view is really high level.

[robert]

Does Chen really describe silk reeling or is he just saying when u r sitting don’t be idle keep moving your hands

The quote is above. I've been shown seated silk reeling which I use on long flights. HJS should know what silk reeling is. I have a translation by CZH so I don't know what is written in Chinese.

[robert]

I'm quite sure that this translation is not correct. Beside the book that you were citing from (and which i also have, page 100) i have a very precise translation which is quite different. It really doesn't describe one single exercise but how the method should be applied (page 206, Kommentare zu den grafischen Erläuterungen zum Taijiquan des Chen-Clans). Maybe the user "Taiwandeutscher" may shed some light on this as he is the translator of the german version which from my point of view is really high level.

The English translation we're talking about is paraphrased, rather than literal so I have a Chinese copy as well. The Chinese is

拳家缠丝精法所走之路, 适与相仿。

Chen Xin is too literary for me, but that's something like - Walk the path (lu) (to learn) boxing's silk reeling method, it's suitable to copy the appearance. That's followed by instructions on how to step and move your hands. That's followed by -

久练纯熟,则起落进退,旋转自由,而轻

Practice for a long time and you'll become proficient at rising and falling, advancing and retreating, freely rotating, lightly, ...


It sure looks like an exercise to me. People who do bagua might be interested to know that Chen Xin describes to movements using nine palace diagrams.

[wayne hansen]

Actually, from my point of view it doesn't matter if you have single exercises or not and who started with single silk reeling exercises. It must be in the form and it is what Chen Xin described in his book.

I agree, but Chen Xin's book does describe a silk reeling exercise.

HJS writes about CF teaching him a seated silk reeling exercise.

Even when sitting, he would cross his hands and rotate them. He told me to do the same. At the time, I did not understand what this was supposed to achieve. Later on, I realized that this practice was used to be aware of the silk reeling.

In my lineage every silk reeling exercise we practice is extracted from the form. It's just something like a drill and the result must be reintegrated into the form once you "got" it.

I've been taught the same and I often take small movements of the form and repeat them so they are silk reeling exercises.

He dosent seem to describe silk reeling here

[origami_itto]

I'm quite sure that this translation is not correct. Beside the book that you were citing from (and which i also have, page 100) i have a very precise translation which is quite different. It really doesn't describe one single exercise but how the method should be applied (page 206, Kommentare zu den grafischen Erläuterungen zum Taijiquan des Chen-Clans). Maybe the user "Taiwandeutscher" may shed some light on this as he is the translator of the german version which from my point of view is really high level.

The English translation we're talking about is paraphrased, rather than literal so I have a Chinese copy as well. The Chinese is

拳家缠丝精法所走之路, 适与相仿。

Chen Xin is too literary for me, but that's something like - Walk the path (lu) (to learn) boxing's silk reeling method, it's suitable to copy the appearance. That's followed by instructions on how to step and move your hands. That's followed by -

久练纯熟,则起落进退,旋转自由,而轻

Practice for a long time and you'll become proficient at rising and falling, advancing and retreating, freely rotating, lightly, ...


It sure looks like an exercise to me. People who do bagua might be interested to know that Chen Xin describes to movements using nine palace diagrams.

The nine palaces are mentioned in the Yang 40 chapters as well, but no real description of them beyond the arrangements of the trigrams.

[robert]

HJS writes about CF teaching him a seated silk reeling exercise.

Even when sitting, he would cross his hands and rotate them. He told me to do the same. At the time, I did not understand what this was supposed to achieve. Later on, I realized that this practice was used to be aware of the silk reeling.

He dosent seem to describe silk reeling here

OK. What movements are used to be aware of the silk reeling that aren't silk reeling?

[wayne hansen]

Weren’t we talking about the history of silk reeling not things that may look like it

[Bao]

As far as i understand what Chen Xin wrote, he described the principle of silk reeling and not a single exercise and how it should be applied when executing the form. With all other things i agree.

What Chen Xin meant by silk reeling is a principle of body movement, not exercises, drills or certain postures or movements.

But I am not sure that how silk reeling exercises are usually taught in Chen style today even teach the type of whole body coordinated coiling that Chen describes, something that can be seen present in various IMA traditions. After all, Chen Xin's original intention was not to write about a book about Chen Tai Chi, but about internal principles in general. Seems like Chen stylists often confuse dantian movement, rotation and coordination with a type of whole body coiling that Chen Xin describes. Dantian movement/coordination and silk reeling movement are not the same thing.

[Graculus]

What movements are used to be aware of the silk reeling that aren't silk reeling?

That could quite easily refer to hand and arm movements that are not linked to the rest of the body - most people have a greater awareness of their hand movements than the rest of the body and it may be easier to get a feel of what you are aiming for by concentrating on the hands alone. As I sit typing this, I can move my hands and get a feel of the twist and tension I would get if I stood up and engaged the rest of my body and did it properly. (I can also move my hands in what looks to be a very similar motion and not get that feeling).

As silk reeling is something that involves the whole body, it may not be correct to call such hand exercises silk reeling in an absolute sense. Of course, once you can do it, you can do silk reeling sitting down or in any other position you choose.

Graculus
https://www.ichijoji.blogspot.com

[origami_itto]

origami wrote

Yes, you do, up and down, forward and back, left and right. It doesn't necessarily look like that depending on how the center is being used in the movement, but the most basic example is when you punch with the right using the waist, there is an equal and opposite force on the left. If the center is stationary then the body simply spins, but if one side is anchored then the center will move as well and it appears to be a forward only movement. But it's really expansive from the center. Up and down should be continously expressed through lifting the headtop and sitting the tailbone.

yes don't disagree on the opposite force to the left bit.
what I meant is the omni expanding force I see as constant and a part of a wider whole including other (main) lines of force that balance out.

for me expand / contract works in tandem with open close idea

So in thinking about this and remembering and experimenting a little, I'm less convinced it has anything at all to do with force and everything to do with intention. I suppose the energy follows the intention which balances the forces, but we don't get there by focusing on forces, we get there by clarifying the intent.

I mentioned this hole that I keep falling into. It occurs to me that the problem is that I'm projecting my intention out linearly so if they are able to pull me into that intention further I'm overextended and off balance. Because my forward intention isn't matched by a rearward intention, when they pull me I have to change my intention to fight against it, which even if I'm successful then opens me up to the wobbly back and forth situation where they can amplify my corrective movements and throw me all over.

So by having that rearward intention, when they try to pull, it's sort of anchored. But even then without intention to the sides, those are vulnerable.

When releasing jin, it should follow that intention in all directions.

[windwalker]