(Taiwan) Chen YanXi lineage Er Lu Pao Chui

[Urs Krebs]

I agree with bhassler, there's no similarity of body mechanics between the first and second video.It's visible.

[salcanzonieri]

yes, I agree, I wasn't making myself clear.

My original point in posting the middle and third video was that Chen FaKe heavily changed "how" to do the form (not necessarily what to do, since the form is still the form).

And yes, the second video, being an early showing of Chen FaKe's student, shows much change in body mechanics, etc.

And by the time we get to modern times, the third video, the body mechanics, the movements within a posture, etc are even more changed to look more "silk reely".

I was trying to say that the third video is even more drastic of a change from the first video, than the second video.
So, the form movements were even more changed by Chen ZhaoKui.

There are other videos of Chan YanXi lineage practitioners doing the form, and they are much closer to the Du YuZe Taiwan version.

[salcanzonieri]

Non Chen Fake lineages:

Zhu Laohu (Chen Yanxi -> Wang Yan -> Zhu Laohu),

Chen Quanzhong (Chen Yanxi -> Chen Delu -> Chen Quanzhong)

Chen Shitong (Chen Bingwang -> Chen Changhui ->-> Chen Baowen -> Chen Shitong).

So looking at those practitioners I would say we do have a pretty good idea of what pre-Chen fa Ke / Chen Zhaokui Chen style looked like.

here is Chen QuanZhong, doing the Er Lu

[Urs Krebs]

Interpretation of videos can misslead and lineage doesn't cover the whole truth. Du Yuze f.e. learned from Chen Yanxi but afterwards also small frame from Chen Mingbiao. Which teacher had a bigger impact on Du Yuze's Taijiquan? We don't know it, we haven't been there.

I give you this example:

https://youtu.be/iLzkLg617tc

This guy says his lineage came to Shanghai through Chen Yanxi to Yuan Keding who was for a very short time the crown prince of the Empire of China (1915-1916). Do you really believe what we see above is Chen Yanxis Taijiquan. I don't believe it. Chen Yanxi was the teacher of the Yuan Family (Yuan Shikai was also from Henan) and maybe Yuan Keding was teaching too and passing it to other persons. But there must have been major changes until it came down to the guy in the video. So, if we believe the story, then he is showing the purest Chen Style Taijiquan as it can be traced back to Chen Yanxi. On the other hand it is so different to other lineages that also can be traced back to Chen Yanxi that there are bigger doubts. Youtube may be helpful sometimes, but sometimes you also can follow the wrong road.

Edit: And concerning Chen Quanzhong and Chen Shitong. Their mechanics are far away from Du Yuzes lineage too.

[salcanzonieri]

Interpretation of videos can misslead and lineage doesn't cover the whole truth. Du Yuze f.e. learned from Chen Yanxi but afterwards also small frame from Chen Mingbiao. Which teacher had a bigger impact on Du Yuze's Taijiquan? We don't know it, we haven't been there.

I give you this example:

https://youtu.be/iLzkLg617tc

This guy says his lineage came to Shanghai through Chen Yanxi to Yuan Keding who was for a very short time the crown prince of the Empire of China (1915-1916). Do you really believe what we see above is Chen Yanxis Taijiquan. I don't believe it. Chen Yanxi was the teacher of the Yuan Family (Yuan Shikai was also from Henan) and maybe Yuan Keding was teaching too and passing it to other persons. But there must have been major changes until it came down to the guy in the video. So, if we believe the story, then he is showing the purest Chen Style Taijiquan as it can be traced back to Chen Yanxi. On the other hand it is so different to other lineages that also can be traced back to Chen Yanxi that there are bigger doubts. Youtube may be helpful sometimes, but sometimes you also can follow the wrong road.

Edit: And concerning Chen Quanzhong and Chen Shitong. Their mechanics are far away from Du Yuzes lineage too.

Wow, bizarre! heard about this version, but this is the first time I am seeing it.
It looks like someone added post Chen FaKe silk reeling movements and Chen postures to Yang Ban Hou Yang TJQ (middle frame, where they do all these same twisties and movements generally).

Yeah, people coming out of Du YuZe seem, to me, to do the simplest version of old Chen style.
Well, as always, everyone who does any form in TJQ does it very differently from each other to a more or less extent.
I think that people today have the benefit of being able to learn from more than one teacher and can make the form movements that are best for them, as long as they keep the integrity of the style's ideas, strategy, and postural movements. Otherwise, they would be doing something that is not really TJQ.
Which I have seen done and it seems like flying squid hands crap to me.

[Bob]

. . . Some of the Wutan School (Bajiquan) like Adam Hsu learned also Chen Style from Du. But you can see the influence of Bajiquan there. It's nothing bad it's just evolution due to the influences you have.

I'd like to provide a little of clarification regarding the line of Wutan(g) Bajiquan and Chen Style Taijiquan:

First, directly from my own teacher, who was a disciple of Liu Yunqiao, Liu did not put bajiquan into the Chen style that I learned from him (Tony Yang). Having said that, I cannot say what other disciples did or did not do regarding their practice.

I went back and checked some notes that I had taken from my teacher in late 1980s/early 1990s and this is what I can say from my practice:

1) Liu Yunqiao met Chen Fake in Beijing at a military setting (1928). Each demonstrated their art and both were struck and surprised at the similarity of the fajing expression of their systems - what they exchanged during that time no one can say for certain but this story was told to Wutan(g) disciples long before Chen Xiaowang and the Chen Era hit mainstream US and the West in general (since that time I wrote an article years back about Bajiquan training (Journal of Asian Martial Arts) and from my teacher's notes taken, when he was learning from Liu Yunqiao, bajiquan could be laid out through the lens of Wu Xing (5 Elements) - simple example take xingyiquan's san ti shi - take a half step back with the rear leg and turn it to form a 90 degree angle - you then have the bajiquan stance we practice which is our half horse/half bow stance - I now feel that what we practice is much closer to xingyiquan and Liu's saying, "Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all sons of the same Mother."

2) The first form and 2nd form I learned came from Du Yuze - my teacher learned directly from Du Yuze in Du's living room. Whatever was learned was also checked over by Liu Yunqiao so I don't know what, if any, corrections/changes were made. However, my teacher taught praying mantis in park and next to him was a Chen style teacher named Wang Meng Bi. Wang Meng Bi was a jeep driver in the military and learned his taijiquan from Chen Fake (don't know anything beyond that regarding that relationship) and referred to it as xiao jia. My teacher liked it because it was more compact and looked more like bajiquan and so he learned it and asked Liu Yunqiao if he could incorporate it into the material he learned from Du Yuze - Liu said that would be fine to do so inevitably what I learned also has that too.

3) There was talk of Liu Yunqiao's relationship with a zhao bao master when Liu was at a military academy in Xian but nothing more is known.

4) When asked why does the Chen style taijiquan we (wutan(g)) we practice look markedly different from others in the public forum - Liu replied that what we practice is called "Country style" while what they practice is called "City style".

What others (wutan(g)) have added to or subtracted from what they learned I cannot say - some will say that all of the Chen's coming from our line is baji influenced and therefore is not authentic and others will say fajing is bascially fajing so what you see in our Chen style taijiquan is the expression of baji trained fajing expressed in country style postures

Again, not here to argue who's is authentic and who's is not but from my practice bajiquan was not used to alter the Chen forms taught by Du Yuze, if anything, in my case, it was changes and influences from an earlier line of what Chen Fake taught.

And yes, I am overly impressed by what Chen Yu practices.

[Urs Krebs]

Again, not here to argue who's is authentic and who's is not but from my practice bajiquan was not used to alter the Chen forms taught by Du Yuze, if anything, in my case, it was changes and influences from an earlier line of what Chen Fake taught.

Me neither. I referred not to Wutan and Du Yuze in general but to the video in the original post. The stamping there in some postures looks similar to the Liu Yunqiao Bajiquan to me. I know some guys of the Wutan Branch here in Switzerland and we have some exchange from time to time (i even made a little docu about them). They also told me that their Chen Style originally comes from Du Yuze but that there are some Baiji influences there as Bajiquan is one of their main styles. So, my quote came from these two aspects, but of course it's just an opinion.

[Bob]

Urs Krebs

I just want to assure you that I am not challenging or disputing anything you refer to - sometimes the actual intent gets lost in my wording and misunderstanding prevails. I also have thought about this relationship between Wutan(g) bajiquan and the Chen style practice of our line.

I guess I am attempting to clarify and point out the difficulty in sorting out what is meant by "influence" as I have thought about this for years. And as I indicated previously that there is substantial variation within the Wutan(g) lines themselves.

For me the question has been if you use the bajiquan training and development (da qiang training) to produce a level of fajing expression and then express it through the structural postures and alignment of the Chen system does it really reflect baji influenced changes?

When I say I am unaware of any direct baji changes to the Chen forms I learned I am thinking along the lines of someone actually adding postures and alignments from bajiquan and putting them directly into the Chen forms we learned from Du Yuze - for example adding in postures say from da baji into the actual forms (over the years some say this is what Liu Yunqiao did when he developed 3 levels of the Chen short forms) This is something I have not found in what I learned and practiced.

I think of fajing development as kind of water and systems like baji or Chen's taijiquan as different shaped pitchers - pours the same water but outward flow and channeling are different.

Again, thanks for your comments

[Hakkesho]

This discussion thread is quite interesting. Years back while I was still living in Taiwan (2008-2011), we had this exchange with Bob about the possible Baijiquan influence on the chen style from Du Yuze.
Having started my Chen TJQ practice with the Beijing line (Tian Qiuxin), I can maybe give you my insight about choreography and shenfa differences.
The Beijing line is quite a big frame and in my opinion, it doesn't go so much into movement details as compared to the Chen Yu line that I practice now.
If you compare the general choreography, you can finf quite some similarities between Du Yuze's Erlu and the Beijing line and Chen Yu's line.
In terms of Body mechanics (Shenfa), that's where the differences are the most obvious.
The performer on the video has a shenfa that is not comparable with the Beijing line (big frame and maybe say long fajin). The way of issuing power seems to me to be different (Bob mentioned the possible Baji jibengong influence). In Chen Yu's line the fajin is rather short (xiaojin), and the frame is a bit smaller.
I think each and every line has it's own way of practicing and to me it's all good.

[Bob]

Similiar situation found among and within bajiquan lineages -Li Shuwenan interesting example - topic for another posting - LOL

[Urs Krebs]

Thanks for your explanations Bob and Hakkesho. For me it's all fine and makes sense.

[Formosa Neijia]

2) The first form and 2nd form I learned came from Du Yuze - my teacher learned directly from Du Yuze in Du's living room. Whatever was learned was also checked over by Liu Yunqiao so I don't know what, if any, corrections/changes were made. However, my teacher taught praying mantis in park and next to him was a Chen style teacher named Wang Meng Bi. Wang Meng Bi was a jeep driver in the military and learned his taijiquan from Chen Fake (don't know anything beyond that regarding that relationship) and referred to it as xiao jia. My teacher liked it because it was more compact and looked more like bajiquan and so he learned it and asked Liu Yunqiao if he could incorporate it into the material he learned from Du Yuze - Liu said that would be fine to do so inevitably what I learned also has that too.

Bob, thanks for sharing the info about Wang Meng-bi. As one of the last to practice his material, I appreciate the background info. Considering my teacher's friendship with Adam Hsu, there certainly could have been some crosspollination going on but a lot of assumptions about blended styles may simply be due to the fact that Du's (and Wang's) choreography and performance of the forms are different. IMO a lot of people just assumed other things like baji were included it looked different without realizing they were likely seeing an older, less-wushu-ified version of Chen.

[phil b]

I learnt the Pan WIng Chow form from James McNeil Sifu, and it was pretty simplistic. When I came to Taiwan, I looked at some related schools. They all seemed to be more flamboyant, and a couple of teachers told me they had modified the expression of the form to make the silk reeling more obvious. One teacher even said it was because the perception of Chen tai chi was heavily influenced by the mainland, so they followed suit.

[salcanzonieri]

So, here is the names of the movements of the Du YuZe version of the Chen Er Lu set, compare to the Chen FaKe version names. They name the intermediate moves and use different characters for many of the names (got this from a video of Master Ho's student in Taiwan). I translated it into English, please correct me if there is a better way to say it, thanks!

Du YuZe Chen Style “Laojia Erlu Pao Chui” (Old Frame, Second Routine, Cannon Fist)
First Section
1. Preparing Stance (Taiji Qi Shi) 太極起式
2. Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar 金刚捣碓 (Jin Gang Dao Dui)
3. Lazily Tying Coat 懒扎衣 (Lan Zha Yi)
4. Six Sealing and Four Closing 六封四闭 (Liu Feng Si Bi)
5. Single Whip 单鞭 (Dan Bian)
6. Deflect Parry Elbow 搬攔肘 (Ban Lan Zhou)
7. Protecting the Heart Hammer 护心捶 (Hu Xin Chui)
8. Twist Step Slanted Walking 拗步斜行 (Ao Bu Xie Xing)
9. Kill Waist Elbow Strike 煞腰壓肘拳 (Sha Yao Ya Zhou Quan)
10. Enter Grasp Vertical Join 开攬直入 (Kai Lan Zhi Ru)
11. Wind Hits Plum Flower 风摕梅花 (Feng Di Mei Hua)
12. Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar 金刚捣碓 (Jin Gang Dao Dui)
13. Cover Body Hammer 庇身捶 (Bi Shen Chui)
14. Rotate Body Hammer 撇身捶 (Pie Shen Chui)
15. Cutting Hand 斬手 (Zhan Shou)
16. Turn Flowers Out and Brandish Sleeves 翻花舞袖 (Fan Hua Wu Xiu)
17. Hidden Hand Thrust Hammer 掩手肱捶 (Yan Shou Hong Chui)

Second Section
18. Flying Body Bent Luan (bird) Elbow 飛身拗鸞肘 (Fei Shen Ao Luan Zhou)
19. Cloud Hands (three times) 雲手 (Yun Shou)
20. High Pat Horse 高探馬 (Gao Tan Ma)
21. Cloud Hands (three times) 雲手 (Yun Shou)
22. High Pat Horse 高探馬 (Gao Tan Ma)
23. Linking Pearls Cannon 連珠砲 (Lian Zhu Pao) 1
24. Linking Pearls Cannon 連珠砲 (Lian Zhu Pao) 2
25. Linking Pearls Cannon 連珠砲 (Lian Zhu Pao) 3
26. Reverse Ride Unicorn 倒騎麟 (Dao Qi Lin)
27. White Snake Spits Tongue 白蛇吐信 (Bai She Tu Xin) 1
28. White Snake Spits Tongue 白蛇吐信 (Bai She Tu Xin) 2
29. White Snake Spits Tongue 白蛇吐信 (Bai She Tu Xin) 3
30. Ocean Bottom Overturns Flower 海底翻花 (Hai Di Fan Hua)
31. Hidden Hand Thrust Hammer 掩手肱捶 (Yan Shou Hong Chui)

Third Section
32. Turn Body Six Harmony 轉身六合 (Zhuan Shen Liu He)
33. Left Wrap Whip Cannon 左裹鞭砲 (Zuo Guo Bian Pao) 1
34. Left Wrap Whip Cannon 左裹鞭砲 (Zho Guo Bian Pao) 2
35. Right Wrap Whip Cannon 右裹鞭砲 (You Guo Bian Pao) 1
36. Right Wrap Whip Cannon 右裹鞭砲 (You Guo Bian Pao) 2
37. Beast’s Head Pose 獸頭势 (Shou Tou Shi)
38. Splitting Frame 劈架 (Pi Jia)
39. Turn Flowers Out and Brandish Sleeves 翻花舞袖 (Fan Hua Wu Xiu)
40. Hidden Hand Thrust Hammer 掩手肱捶 (Yan Shou Hong Chui)
41. Tame Tiger 伏虎 (Fu Hu)
42. Wipe Eyebrow Thrust 抹眉肱 (Mo Mei Hong)
43. Right Yellow Dragon Three Stirs Water 右黄龙三搅水 (You Huang Long San Jiao Shui)
44. Left Yellow Dragon Three Stirs Water 左黄龙三搅水 (Zuo Huang Long San Jiao Shui)
45. Right Treading One Heel 右蹬一跟 (You Deng Yi Gen)
46. Left Treading One Heel 左蹬一跟 (Zuo Deng Yi Gen)
47. Ocean Bottom Overturns Flower 海底翻花 (Hai Di Fan Hua)
48. Hidden Hand Thrust Hammer 掩手肱捶 (Yan Shou Hong Chui)
49. Hit Trample Leg 摕蹚腿 (Di Dang Tui) (Revolve Shin Cannon 转脛砲 Shuang Jing Pao)
50. Hidden Hand Thrust Hammer 掩手肱捶 (Yan Shou Hong Chui)

Fourth Section
51. Dash Leftward 左冲 (Zuo Chong)
52. Dash Rightward 右冲 (You Chong)
53. Inverted Piercing 倒插 (Dao Cha)
54. Ocean Bottom Overturns Flower 海底翻花 (Hai Di Fan Hua)
55. Hidden Hand Thrust Hammer 掩手肱捶 (Yan Shou Hong Chui)
56. Snatch Two Thrusts 奪二肱 (Er Hong) 1
57. Snatch Two Thrusts 奪二肱 (Er Hong) 2
58. Linking Cannons 連環砲 (Lian Huan Pao)
59. Jade Lady Threads Shuttles 玉女穿梭 (Yu Nu Chuan Suo)
60. Turning Head Back Gate Cannon 回頭當門砲 (Hui Tou Dang Men Pao)
61. Jade Lady Threads Shuttles 玉女穿梭 (Yu Nu Chuan Suo)
62. Turning Head Back Gate Cannon 回頭當門砲 (Hui Tou Dang Men Pao)
63. Rotate Body Hammer 撇身捶 (Pie Shen Chui)
64. Bent Luan (bird) Elbow拗鸞肘 (Ao Luan Zhou)
65. Smooth Elbow 顺兰肘 (Shun Lan Zhou)
66. Pierce Heart Elbow 穿心肘 (Dui Xin Zhou)
67. Bosom within Cannon 窝裡砲 (Wuo Li Pao)
68. Enter Grasp Vertical Join 开攬直入 (Kai Lan Zhi Ru)
69. Wind Hits Plum Flower 风摕梅花 (Feng Di Mei Hua)
70. Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar 金刚捣碓 (Jin Gang Dao Dui)
71. Closing Stance 收式 (Shōu Shì)

Chen Style Taijiquan Old Frame, Second Form, Laojia Erlu Cannon Fist Form (Paocui)

1. Preparing Form (Taiji Qi Shi) 式
2. Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar 金刚捣碓 (Jin Gang Dao Dui)
3. Lazily Tying Coat 懒扎衣 (Lan Zha Yi)
4. Six Sealing and Four Closing 六封四闭 (Liu Feng Si Bi)
5. Single Whip 单鞭 (Dan Bian)
6. Protecting the Heart 护心锤 (Hu Xing Quan)
7. Oblique Walking 斜行 (Xie Xing)
8. Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar 金刚捣碓 (Jin Gang Dao Dui)
9. Flinging Body Punch 撇身锤 (Pie Shen Chui)
10. Point to Crotch Punch 指裆锤 (Zhi Dang Chui)
11. Cutting Hands 斩手 (Zhan Shou)
12. Turn Flowers Out and Brandish Sleeves 翻花舞袖 (Fan Shen Wu Xiu)
13. Hidden Thrust Punch 掩手肱拳 (Yan Shou Hong Quan)

14. Move and Hinder with Elbow 姚兰肘 (Yao Lan Zhou)
15. Big Cloud Hands and Small Cloud Hands 大云手小云手 (Da Yun Shou Xiao Yun Shou)
16. Jade Girl Works Shuttles 玉女穿梭 (Yu Nu Quan Shuo)
17. Ride Animal in the Reverse Direction 骑兽倒退路 (Qí shòu dàotuì lù)
18. Hidden Thrust Punch 掩手肱拳 (Yan Shou Hong Quan)
19. Wrap Firecrackers 裹鞭炮 (Guo Bian)
20. Beast’s Head Pose 兽头势 (Shou Tou Shi)
21. Splitting Frame 劈架 (Pi Jia)
22. Turn Flowers Out and Brandish Sleeves 翻花舞袖 (Fang Shen Wu Xiu)
23. Hidden Thrust Punch 掩手肱拳 (Yan Shou Hong Quan)

24. Tame Tiger 伏虎 (Fu Hu)
25. Rubbing Eyebrow Thrust 磨眉肱 (Mo Mei Hong)
26. Yellow Dragon Stirs Water Three Times 黄龙三搅水 (Huang Long San Jiao Shui)
27. Dash Leftward 左冲 (Zuo Chong) kick
28. Dash Rightward 右冲 (You Chong) kick
29. Hidden Thrust Punch 掩手肱拳 (Yan Shou Hong Quan)
30. Sweeping Leg 扫蹚腿 (Shao Dang Tui)
31. Hidden Thrust Punch 掩手肱拳 (Yan Shou Hong Quan)
32. Linking Cannons 连贯炮锤 (Lian Quan Pao Chui)
33. Hidden Thrust Punch 掩手肱拳 (Yan Shou Hong Quan)

34. Inverted Piercing 倒插 (Dao Cha)
35. Left and Right Attack Twice with Forearms 左右二肱前臂 (Zuo You Er Hong Qian Bi)
36. Turning Head Back Gate Cannon 回头当门炮 (Hui Tou Dan Men Pao)
37. Taiji Cannons 太极炮 (Taiji Pao) / Punches under Armpits (Wu Di Da Zhou Pao)
38. Move and Hinder with Elbow 姚兰肘 (Yao Lan Zhou)
39. Smooth Elbow 顺兰肘 (Shun Lan Zhou)
40. The Cannon Out of the Bosom 窝里炮 (Wuo Di Pao)
41. Go Straight into the Well 回头经兰芝如 (Hui Tou Jing Lan Zhi Ru)
42. Buddha’s Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar 金刚捣碓 (Jin Gang Dao Dui)
43. Closing Form收势 (Shou Shi)

[Doc Stier]

This thread and other similar thread topics, although interesting from a historical development perspective, often become a debate over which lineage is the best among many variations of the style.

Having now known and observed teachers of different lineages for more than half a century to date, it seems clear to me that the benchmark of excellence has less to do with a particular stylistic interpretation of form practice, the sequential list of postures in a specific form or the transitional movements between them, but has more to do with proper adherence to what is generally accepted as the correct principles of the style, and the degree of personal commitment to serious training by individual practitioners in any given lineage.

When these factors are clearly evident, the skills and benefits derived from the practice are usually obvious. Over the course of a lifetime of training, it's not difficult to observe who has achieved and maintained excellent physical health and fitness, excellent athletic performance capability, excellent internal cultivation, and excellent martial applications skill, even though individual practitioners may focus on some of these outcomes more than they do on others.

Although it may well be true that the signature training methods of some lineages are capable of producing these results more quickly than other lineages apparently do, all authentic lineages have nonetheless produced high level practitioners in virtually every generation.

As such, it seems to me that any differences in form sequence or the stylistic interpretation of form performance, differences in the transitional movements between the named and numbered form postures, and so forth, are ultimately moot points when unbroken principles are evident in the movements of any form and the training material is practiced seriously with the goal of constantly improving personal skills and benefits.

The most important question for each of us to ask ourselves is thus simply whether or not we are practicing whatever lineage we prefer in a way that will tap its greatest potential to produce our own personal skills and benefits.