dedicated to the discussion of the chinese internal martial arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang, taijiquan, related arts, and anything else best discussed over a bottle of rum
Doc Stier wrote:This thread and other similar thread topics, although interesting from a historical development perspective, often become a debate over which lineage is the best among many variations of the style.
. . . Although it may well be true that the signature training methods of some lineages are capable of producing these results more quickly than other lineages apparently do, all authentic lineages have nonetheless produced high level practitioners in virtually every generation.
As such, it seems to me that any differences in form sequence or the stylistic interpretation of form performance, differences in the transitional movements between the named and numbered form postures, and so forth, are ultimately moot points when unbroken principles are evident in the movements of any form and the training material is practiced seriously with the goal of constantly improving personal skills and benefits.
The most important question for each of us to ask ourselves is thus simply whether or not we are practicing whatever lineage we prefer in a way that will tap its greatest potential to produce our own personal skills and benefits.
Perfectly said and personal skills and benefits may change over one's life time of practice and development
Doc Stier wrote:This thread and other similar thread topics, although interesting from a historical development perspective, often become a debate over which lineage is the best among many variations of the style.
. . . Although it may well be true that the signature training methods of some lineages are capable of producing these results more quickly than other lineages apparently do, all authentic lineages have nonetheless produced high level practitioners in virtually every generation.
As such, it seems to me that any differences in form sequence or the stylistic interpretation of form performance, differences in the transitional movements between the named and numbered form postures, and so forth, are ultimately moot points when unbroken principles are evident in the movements of any form and the training material is practiced seriously with the goal of constantly improving personal skills and benefits.
The most important question for each of us to ask ourselves is thus simply whether or not we are practicing whatever lineage we prefer in a way that will tap its greatest potential to produce our own personal skills and benefits.
Perfectly said and personal skills and benefits may change over one's life time of practice and development
Thank you, sir! I would add that if one's personal skills and benefits are not constantly changing and improving over one's lifetime of practice and development, via perpetual refinement and insight, then why bother to maintain a longterm training regimen?
As in any other endeavor, seeing an enriching return on investment has to be a consideration in order to justify the time and effort devoted to training. If a positive return isn't often seen regularly, either the methods being practiced or the way in which they are practiced, if not both, need to be changed.
Sadly, I know many practitioners who have maintained a seemingly non-productive martial arts practice over several decades time, without much observable improvement in their skill level or other personal benefits. And amazingly, they apparently never acknowledge that fact or make any realistic attempt to change their training outcome. Don't be that guy!
Not withstanding Doc's insightful comments, there might be a little more to be said on the historical side of things.
Certainly, there seems to be a similarity between the older Taiwanese generation of Chen Fake's students and Du Yuze - Phil B mentioned James McNeil, who studied under Pan Wing Chow as an example, and I agree that the choreography of their forms can be described as relatively simple or perhaps conservative in nature. (I presume this is what you meant by 'simplistic'.) Although I haven't seen any video of James McNeil doing Chen, I have seen a photograph which shows a more correct attention to the details of the position (as taught in that line) than is often shown. I have also heard of influences from the mainland style creeping into the forms on Taiwan, so what is currently taught may be different yet again.
The students/descendants of Chen Fake on the mainland typically have a different expression (and I would imagine they have had some influence on other non-Chen Fake lines as well) and several of the moves are done in quite different ways. This suggests that either Chen Fake changed the expression of what he was teaching some time during his life, or that some other influences crept in.
Personally, I think there is a strong case for these differences in movement and expression coming from Feng Zhiqiang, quite possibly from his studies with Hu Yaozhen, with whom he continued to study at the same time as he studied with Chen Fake. Feng's debt to Hu is indicated in his use of Hunyuan to describe his style of taiji, but is it present anywhere else? I have seen no film of Hu, but his daughter, Hu Yuexian performing some of his qigong exercises (Hu Yaozhen is considered the father of qigong, reponsible for popularising it in the modern era) shows a style of movement which seems to bear quite some resemblance to the way Feng moves (as least as much as the more conservative styles of Chen taiji do).
Feng's style of movement appears to have been passed down to mainland practitioners, which is not surprising as he played a major role in the propagation of Chen style after Chen Fake's death – he was probably the senior student (and certainly the most proficient fighter) still at liberty on the mainland, and was like 'an older brother' to Chen Zhaokui (who became the main family teacher to the next generation) – he had been overseeing his training even before Chen Fake's death.
Also important in a society (and family) where teaching was typically concentrated on only one or two main successors to pass on the teachings, Chen Fake's oldest son (Chen Xiaowang's father) was in jail and would die there a couple of years after Chen Fake's death, while in another main branch of the family, Chen Zhaohai, older brother of Chen Zhaopei, was executed in 1950. Thus two of the major standard bearers of the style died early. Chen Zhaokui (Chen Fake's youngest son) and Chen Zhaopei were the two family members who passed their styles on and which became lao jia and xin jia.
This is not to pass judgement on any particular branch - Feng Zhiqiang certainly seems to have been a highly skilled fighter and to have passed those skills on to some of his students. However, there are certainly differences in what the different branches teach, and it is interesting to speculate where they might have come from.
For illustrative purposes, this is Chen Xiang, one of Feng's students. (Interestingly, he also learnt Baji).
Graculus wrote:The students/descendants of Chen Fake on the mainland typically have a different expression (and I would imagine they have had some influence on other non-Chen Fake lines as well) and several of the moves are done in quite different ways. This suggests that either Chen Fake changed the expression of what he was teaching some time during his life, or that some other influences crept in.
It's documented that CFK changed his form while he was in Beijing.
HJS wrote in his book -
The form that I am practicing and teaching today is not the original Chen Fake form either. In 1956, over twenty years after I started learning from Master Chen Fake, I changed the old form according to the teachingsof Chen Fake, the teachings of Chen Xin ("An Illustrated Book of Chen Family Tajiquan") and the experiences I gained from many years of teaching. I went to Beijing with this revised system and performed it for Master Chen Fake. He readily assured me that my system was essentially the same as his own and encouraged me to concentrate on the principles instead of the outer appearances. I now understand what he meant, because with the system that he taught Feng Zhiqiang later, Master Chen Fake showed that he had also changed his own system. Chen Zhaokui, Chen Fake's son, taught in Nanjing and Shanghai, and the system he taught also varied greatly from the system I originally learned from Chen Fake.
Also Shen Jiazhen and Gu Liuxin wrote in their book -
This book presents yilu and erlu taijiquan, the late taijiquan teacher Chen Fake's (descendant of Chen Wangting, 1887-1957) style of boxing established in his later years.
Last edited by robert on Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
The only other comment I would add is there really is no " Taiwan " Chen style taijiquan - all the 1st generation "Taiwan" masters learned and transmitted their art from the mainland
I have been saying for years that Feng Zhiqiang is more than likely the originator of the Chen Silk Reeling exercises (combining material from Hu and Chen FaKe).
BTW, I have close to 40 years experience in CMA and practice at least 4 hours or more a day. The last 5 years I mostly practice the Shaolin Rou Quan forms and from them lead into Chen YanXi type of Chen TJQ and then into Old Yang (Pre-YCF).
Anyways, you step by step examine Du YuZe style Chen, so many of the posters are clearly seen also in General Qi JiGuang's books. Amazingly so, much more apparent than anything coming out of Chen FaKe's students. Both in the Yi Lu and Er Lu.
And when you learn all these forms, it leads to the conclusion that Yang LuChan was not taught the Chen family hard forms, such as Pao Chui, etc. but instead was taught was is now called Chen TJQ Lao Jia (both Da Jian and Xiao Jia). And then Yang based on his Hong Quan experience changed this form more, using postural movements as they are done in Hong Quan and more it more flowing and rounder.
Much of the differences found in Yang can be found in how Shaolin does the Hong Quan.
Now, there is a difference between Shanxi Hong Quan, which is one of the oldest long fist styles and was introduced into Shaolin from Zhao KuanYin himself. There is a Lao Hong Quan that is done of DengFeng area that is 4 roads, and is a merger of Shaolin Rou Quan and Zhao's Shanxi Hong Quan. More than once Shanxi Hong Quan was introduced into Shaolin material, during the Ming dynasty, Li Sou brought it into Shaolin again. AND two of his students taught his Hong Quan. Tai Zhu Chang Quan, Pao Chui, Rou Quan and other sets to the founder of Tong Bei Quan, who merged it with Taoist Spear and Sword to create his Tong Bei Quan. This same person was the one that visited Chen village and introduced his forms there, from this material Chen TJQ was developed, which later became the Lao Jia Yi Lu. The Shanxi Hong Quan was the roots of the Chen Er Lu Pao Chui form.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In the Du YuZe Chen, there are a lot of transitional postural movements that are missing in Chen FaKe version. When practicing this set, you see a lot that you don't seen anywhere else, but it isn't just appended on, the form maintains its structural integrity, in fact this "missing" movements are composed of movements that act as Chin Na and break holds, elbow strikes, trips, throws, sweeps, also more jumping postures that would cause a real beating on someone.
There is someone on YouTube that has step by step instruction from Master Ho in Taiwan for both Yi Lu and Er Lu and Ho clearly shows all the material that I would consider "missing" or "lost" now with modern Chen. To me these transitional moves are essential to make the main form work better.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
salcanzonieri wrote:I have been saying for years that Feng Zhiqiang is more than likely the originator of the Chen Silk Reeling exercises (combining material from Hu and Chen FaKe).
BTW, I have close to 40 years experience in CMA and practice at least 4 hours or more a day. The last 5 years I mostly practice the Shaolin Rou Quan forms and from them lead into Chen YanXi type of Chen TJQ and then into Old Yang (Pre-YCF).
Anyways, you step by step examine Du YuZe style Chen, so many of the posters are clearly seen also in General Qi JiGuang's books. Amazingly so, much more apparent than anything coming out of Chen FaKe's students. Both in the Yi Lu and Er Lu.
And when you learn all these forms, it leads to the conclusion that Yang LuChan was not taught the Chen family hard forms, such as Pao Chui, etc. but instead was taught was is now called Chen TJQ Lao Jia (both Da Jian and Xiao Jia). And then Yang based on his Hong Quan experience changed this form more, using postural movements as they are done in Hong Quan and more it more flowing and rounder.
Much of the differences found in Yang
The problem with your posts is that you're always looking through your Shaolin glasses. It is quite known that Shaolin integrated many things from outside. They were not the evolution. So it also may be the other way round. Feel free to read my article and criticize it afterwards. It's an alternative theory but with some evidence from my point of view:
On my first trip to China in 1998 we went to the Shaolin Temple and it was nothing more than contemporary wushu performance done to the beat of Western rock music. Contemporary wushu practitioners are indeed very skilled but it was not anything of a traditional practice. I slipped out of the performance area to get a look around temple and found field which had at least 100 young kids being trained in the "Shaolin" contemporary wushu.
Later we went to Shanghai and met Wu Bin, Jet Li's teacher. He informed us that when they filmed the Shaolin Temple there were only caretakers there and everything was overgrown and, in general, dilapidated - he was only aware of 2 original forms in existence and everything we saw was nothing but re-invented forms filtered through contemporary wushu routines.
We also had a martial artist actor who played the bad guy in the Shaolin Temple and whose wife is also a national ranked martial artist. They are from Xi'an and he literally told us all the material in the film was also reinvented. Over an evening pizza at Liugi's in Akron, Ohio he informed us that the material in the movie was not traditional shaolin material.
Liu Yunqiao, when he was 8 years old and in poor health, was taught a very long form, taizuquan by the family bodyguard - One of the Wutan disciples, who also has an academic PhD and family relations with some of the older Chen villagers went back and checked county records and was pretty sure this was the Chen precursor form and nothing was found relating it to the Shaolin Temple - The form is over 100 movements and played entirely as slow, if not slower, than taijiquan - this is not the form taught by Adam Hsu which I believe he learned from Han Qing Tan.
Now I am not so close minded about the possibilities of the role of the Shaolin Temple but very skeptical as it being the source of Chinese martial arts innovation and practice. I also am inclined to believe that most of the martial arts was developed outside of the temple and passed through the temple for various reasons.
My own personal take on Yang taijiquan via Yang Luchan - I think what he taught publicly was one aspect of the developmental training of the system of Chen's taijiquan - we used to refer to the practice of Yang's taijiquan as moving stance work where as bajiquan, at least in the early training was referred to as punctuated moving stance work.
My major concern with the so-called modern Shaolin Temple material is that it is hard to see what is traditional material from that which was developed for commercial usage.
We had a Shaolin monk stay with our school for awhile and he taught the Monk's spade - skilled adept and well done but never sure that this was an original form from the Shaolin Temple
Last edited by Bob on Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
1 - When I say "Shaolin" I mean the surviving forms that were dispersed into the countryside. There are Quanpu manuals with dates and there are family lineage records with dates. Hence, one can research theses, as i have and a few others, and get an idea of what existed before and influences. When I was writing my book, plenty of people provided info from these materials.
2 - Yes, Shaolin temple brought back in forms from all over Henan. Thanks to being destroyed many times, last time was 1949 by the Japanese. I have been one of the biggest critics for Shaolin's fake acrobatic wushi modern junk. They only in the last 20 years started bringing in and examining the countryside Shaolin which was more authentic. Hence, they composed the Shaolin Da Quan, and before his death, I got a lot of info from Shi DeGen who wrote it.
3 - the evolution from Shaolin into TJQ has been documented by a lot of other researchers beside me. The group from France in the 1980s found the forms, such as Xie Quan that are obviouly older and precursors to Chen TJQ. You can find their research on internet.
4 - What makes Shaolin (what's found in the countryside in Henan) an obvious influence is not only that it very old and well known, but the the functional use and the postural movements show a clear evolution towards what became Chen TJQ and Yang TJQ. And they themselves have acknowledged that and written about it.
So, I would think, as it was to me, that looking at how the move started and later evolved with be very interesting. And it does help you do the forms better, especially for self defense applications, which as often lacking in TJQ today. How you step and move in these Proto TJQ Shaolin forms opens one's mind to how and why the moves are the way they are in Chen and Yang TJQ.
The age of the Shaolin forms point to their being the roots of TJQ. and also Bagua. AND XingYi was a deep influence on Shaolin, greatly so, from Ji Long Feng and his students visiting and exchanging with Shaolin.
I made a 10 part video series on YouTube showing every Shaolin form that was a root to TJQ.
salcanzonieri wrote:I have been saying for years that Feng Zhiqiang is more than likely the originator of the Chen Silk Reeling exercises (combining material from Hu and Chen FaKe).
Im pretty sure this is common knowledge among Chen players, no? Prior to Feng's 18 silk reeling qigong set there wasn't anything similar. There are a lot of big questions to ask, such as if some similar types of movements were done in single move practice, or if, since silk reeling was a recognized jin, if there wasn't some way of delineating it in qigong form, but more or less Feng turned it into a science. There is also the story of Chen Fa-Ke doing silk reeling all the time as a form of meditation, but from what I can tell this is a story about his dedication and should not be used to infer there was a set of silk reeling exercises per-se. "Silk Reeling" is not really a secret anymore and there would be no reason to hide the existence of such a set among the old 5 sets or the 2 new sets.
salcanzonieri wrote:BTW, I have close to 40 years experience in CMA and practice at least 4 hours or more a day. (...) (chart, comparisons)
Much of the differences found in Yang
Thank you for your dedication and insights, they are really valuable -- I'm sure I've said this before but it bears repeating. However it seems as if your message above was cut off. What were you going to say about the differences found in Yang? And yes FWIW, your idea about Yang modifying the Chen's art 'again' based on his previous studies is exactly what I think too based on a comparison of the sets. This idea just seems to spring into existence when you look at how the arts relate to each other. Esp. moves found in Yang's prior art that show up in Yang style but were not found in Chen style.
salcanzonieri wrote:There is someone on YouTube that has step by step instruction from Master Ho in Taiwan for both Yi Lu and r Lu and Ho clearly shows all the material that I would consider "missing" or "lost" now with modern Chen. To me these transitional moves are essential to make the main form work better.
If you could find the link and send it to me I would be grateful. I've been looking up and saving interesting things like this for quite some time, please and thanks in advance if you can find it offhand!
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
