(Taiwan) Chen YanXi lineage Er Lu Pao Chui

[salcanzonieri]

I have been saying for years that Feng Zhiqiang is more than likely the originator of the Chen Silk Reeling exercises (combining material from Hu and Chen FaKe).

Im pretty sure this is common knowledge among Chen players, no? Prior to Feng's 18 silk reeling qigong set there wasn't anything similar. There are a lot of big questions to ask, such as if some similar types of movements were done in single move practice, or if, since silk reeling was a recognized jin, if there wasn't some way of delineating it in qigong form, but more or less Feng turned it into a science. There is also the story of Chen Fa-Ke doing silk reeling all the time as a form of meditation, but from what I can tell this is a story about his dedication and should not be used to infer there was a set of silk reeling exercises per-se. "Silk Reeling" is not really a secret anymore and there would be no reason to hide the existence of such a set among the old 5 sets or the 2 new sets.

BTW, I have close to 40 years experience in CMA and practice at least 4 hours or more a day. (...) (chart, comparisons)

Much of the differences found in Yang

Thank you for your dedication and insights, they are really valuable -- I'm sure I've said this before but it bears repeating. However it seems as if your message above was cut off. What were you going to say about the differences found in Yang? And yes FWIW, your idea about Yang modifying the Chen's art 'again' based on his previous studies is exactly what I think too based on a comparison of the sets. This idea just seems to spring into existence when you look at how the arts relate to each other. Esp. moves found in Yang's prior art that show up in Yang style but were not found in Chen style.

There is someone on YouTube that has step by step instruction from Master Ho in Taiwan for both Yi Lu and r Lu and Ho clearly shows all the material that I would consider "missing" or "lost" now with modern Chen. To me these transitional moves are essential to make the main form work better.

If you could find the link and send it to me I would be grateful. I've been looking up and saving interesting things like this for quite some time, please and thanks in advance if you can find it offhand!

YouTube channel link is posted separately in previous.

The sentences that were cut off in my post are now there.

[salcanzonieri]

https://youtu.be/iTcEkM0dzkw

[youtube]https://youtu.be/iTcEkM0dzkw[/youtube]

Not the flavor I know but it's Du Yuze's form

hmm, that is the Xiao Jia - Small Frame form, much different from the Lao Jia large frame form.
There are very different postural movements and extra ones. I can't use that form to compare.

[salcanzonieri]

https://bajiquan.fandom.com/wiki/Ryuchi_Matsuda_%E6%9D%BE%E7%94%B0_%E9%9A%86%E6%99%BA

This late practitioner has a book, with English translation, which has all the posture names and pictures of Du Yuze's yi lu

Thank you for the information, I wasn't aware that he practiced Du YuZe's form.
I have almost all this guy's book, but not that one. Will have to find it.

I do have Master Ho's step by step Yi Lu book tough.
I have 2 copies, if someone is looking for a copy.

[jbb73]

https://youtu.be/iTcEkM0dzkw

[youtube]https://youtu.be/iTcEkM0dzkw[/youtube]

Not the flavor I know but it's Du Yuze's form

hmm, that is the Xiao Jia - Small Frame form, much different from the Lao Jia large frame form.
There are very different postural movements and extra ones. I can't use that form to compare.

Albeit I appreciate Matsuda Ryûchi very much, I would not take him as an exponent of Xiaojia. He had some contact to Chen Liqing and Chen Peishan, but after all what I read in his books and the Japanese Wushu-Magazins, I would say his Taijiquan came mostly from the Dajia-teachers he met.

By the way, Bob:
I think you mean the Hiden Chen-Jia Taijiquan Nyûmon? I would not take that as an reliable source for the Taijiquan of Du Yuze; there was to much confusion concerning the names and traditions the time the book was published (1990).

[Bob]

https://youtu.be/iTcEkM0dzkw

[youtube]https://youtu.be/iTcEkM0dzkw[/youtube]

Not the flavor I know but it's Du Yuze's form

hmm, that is the Xiao Jia - Small Frame form, much different from the Lao Jia large frame form.
There are very different postural movements and extra ones. I can't use that form to compare.

Albeit I appreciate Matsuda Ryûchi very much, I would not take him as an exponent of Xiaojia. He had some contact to Chen Liqing and Chen Peishan, but after all what I read in his books and the Japanese Wushu-Magazins, I would say his Taijiquan came mostly from the Dajia-teachers he met.

By the way, Bob:
I think you mean the Hiden Chen-Jia Taijiquan Nyûmon? I would not take that as an reliable source for the Taijiquan of Du Yuze; there was to much confusion concerning the names and traditions the time the book was published (1990).

I think you are correct regarding the book as I received a photo copied version from a close friend who found it in Chinatown, Washington DC around that time and I had a Chinese graduate student translate the names but never really used it.

There has always been a some bad feelings among Du Yuze's disciples and the Wutan students who learned from him - in private exchanges I was told that what was taught to the Wutan students was incomplete, however, at least in my case, it was modified by Liu Yunqiao and integrated with some of Wang Meng Bi's material - I make no claims to be an expert in Chen's taijiquan and I have never been interested in those "baji comic books" but what I learned held up well in performance competition in 1990 in Qingdao (12 competitors only 1 Westerner in the group and Ma Hong's disciple took 1st place - the Westerner received 4th place and got to exchange a bit with Ma Hong's disciple)

I think what was in the posted clip was sometimes referred to as hu lei jia and there has always been these arguments about xiao jia or hu lei jia (talking about the late 1980s and early 1990s). some have claimed what Adam Hsu is playing is not authentic Hu Lei Jia although Adam Hsu says he learned this from Du Yuze

Here is what I think Matsuda is playing (I really wondered if he learned this from Adam Hsu or the late Su Yu Zhang - I never learned that)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7bv03IXF_w

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7bv03IXF_w&rel=0&color1=0xd6d6bc&color2=0x71605d&border=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350">

My interests long ago shifted from Chen taijiquan although I still run through the short forms developed by Liu Yunqiao - I enjoyed the cannon fist form but just too much material to stay focused on so after learning bajiquan I left behind this material.

[wayne hansen]

I had a Japanese book with Adam HSU doing Chen tai chi
The number one student of a very prominent tai chi teacher saw the book
He said I know this book it’s where ….. got his old yang form

[Bob]

Hmm - sounds good to me - unless. . . Refers to Adam Hsu - I asked directly about whether he learned Yang style taijiquan - his response was NO! Found it odd given that he had written about Liu Yunqiao's Yang style taijiquan

[salcanzonieri]

I had a Japanese book with Adam HSU doing Chen tai chi
The number one student of a very prominent tai chi teacher saw the book
He said I know this book it’s where ….. got his old yang form

so, is that saying that they presented a Chen TJQ form as an Old Yang form?

An old yang form that I learned is Chen like in some postures but it was supposedly the old Yang form that YCF and YJH practiced, it is similar to Shi DaoMei's Old Yang form, very close.
Comes from Bruce Frantzis' Yang teachers.
.
Also learned BP Chan's Taiwan Chen form that he learned from his main teacher there (one of Liu YuanJiao's main students)
and an Old Yang that he did that wasn't much different from the other old Yang out of Shi DaoMei / BKF lines.

[taiwandeutscher]

Interesting thread!
Concerning Du's stuff, in comparison to small frame of Chen Peishan and sister Peiju, very knowledgable would be Dietmar Stubenbaum from Germany. He learned from Du directly and also trained with Tu Tzongjen, Du's main desciple, before he took up small frame from Chen Peishan, Chen Peiju.
For Chen style in Taiwan, there were 5 teachers bringing it from China, Du Yuze (Chen Yanxi, Chen Mingbiao [small frame]), Wang Helin (Chen Fake), Wang Jinrang (Chen Yingde, Taiwan small frame = Huleijia from Yang Hu), Guo Qingshan (Chen Shengsan), and Wang Mengbi (Chen Fake).