Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

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Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:21 pm

here is a great (Taiwan) version from Du YuZe (Chen YanXi) line by Ho HongTsai

You can see there are a lot more details during the transitional movements (joint locks, breaks, etc etc):
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:24 pm

compare to modernized version:

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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:54 pm

Weird how the Chen FaKe type of Lao Jia follows the way the Yang Lao Jia moves, with the extra movements, and the way the moves are done.

Such as Brush Knee section is done with the extra moves like the Yang styles,
and Repulse Monkey is done with the expansive movements like Yang style,
Also, Shang San Bu (2) is done like Yang style does it. Much different.\
After the double kick (which is in the Pre Yang CF styles) the movements are different.
Missing the transition to Fair Lady.
many other details missing.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Formosa Neijia on Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:10 pm

Sal,
Looking at Ho's performance shows a lot of moves where he's still holding back. Compare that to the performance of my teacher below and you'll see a fuller expression of those moves. I wanted also to share this because Zhou laoshi was adamant that Chen style was not only directly connected to northern shaolin, he actually considered Chen style to be the highest form of it, which dovetails nicely with the conclusions that Sal drew years ago about taiji, etc. being drawn directly from shaolin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3bLYNFSutk
Please note that Zhou laoshi also had extensive training in northern praying mantis, long fist, huleijia taiji, and some bajiquan. His Chen comes from Wang Meng-bi, a fellow student of Chen Fa-ke.
Here's the only footage of Wang Meng-bi I've seen with Du.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3ZASwfeNa0
Last edited by Formosa Neijia on Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:53 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:Sal,
Looking at Ho's performance shows a lot of moves where he's still holding back. Compare that to the performance of my teacher below and you'll see a fuller expression of those moves. I wanted also to share this because Zhou laoshi was adamant that Chen style was not only directly connected to northern shaolin, he actually considered Chen style to be the highest form of it, which dovetails nicely with the conclusions that Sal drew years ago about taiji, etc. being drawn directly from shaolin.

Please note that Zhou laoshi also had extensive training in northern praying mantis, long fist, huleijia taiji, and some bajiquan. His Chen comes from Wang Meng-bi, a fellow student of Chen Fa-ke.
Here's the only footage of Wang Meng-bi I've seen with Du.


Ok, but I am comparing PRE Chen FaKe style with POST Chen Fake style.
Your example is Post Chen Fake, which is much different from Ho's Chen YanXi verson and more like the Yi Lu I already posted showing Chen Zhenglei's post-Chen FaKe Yi Lu.
It shows the same alterations.

There has been some talk by quite a few people, Graham for example, that Chen FaKe may have redesigned the Yi Lu after looking at Yang Lu Chan's Yi Lu.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:06 pm

Here is my chart showing how Chen follows 2 Shaolin forms move by move, using them as a frame for the Chen TJQ ideas.
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf

Here is a video of me showing the Shaolin Xie Quan set, written in the chart above. So much like Chen


Bear in mind, I am doing a ROUGH walk through, I had a slipped disc in my back, pinching the main nerve. So, considering that
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Urs Krebs on Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:23 am

Again, i mentioned it in other threads: comparing Du Yuze's Chen Style with mainland versions is missleading. Du Yuze learned first from Chen Yanxi but later from Chen Mingbiao (small frame). From my point of view, Du Yuze's Chen Style is heavily influenced from the small frame. It's visible when you compare the video in the original post for example with Chen Boxiang's (from the village) small frame:

https://youtu.be/iUs-rTOuBHQ

That being said,it is not meant in a bad way. Chen Style in Taiwan just took a bit another direction as there were only a few masters brought it to Taiwan and their background was giving the direction of the further evolution on the island.
Last edited by Urs Krebs on Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:29 am

Urs Krebs wrote:Again, i mentioned it in other threads: comparing Du Yuze's Chen Style with mainland versions is missleading. Du Yuze learned first from Chen Yanxi but later from Chen Mingbiao (small frame). From my point of view, Du Yuze's Chen Style is heavily influenced from the small frame. It's visible when you compare the video in the original post for example with Chen Boxiang's (from the village) small frame:

https://youtu.be/iUs-rTOuBHQ

That being said,it is not meant in a bad way. Chen Style in Taiwan just took a bit another direction as there were only a few masters brought it to Taiwan and their background was giving the direction of the further evolution on the island.


When you see Small Frame from lineages outside of Chen FaKe, then, yes, it is close to Du YuZe style Chen.
But not at all when you see Chen FaKe style Chen Small Frame, it is much different than the Taiwan versions.

Perhaps Small Frame was closer to Lao Jia back in Chen YanXi's time?

This is a non Chen FaKe small frame:


This is typical Chen FaKe derived (NOTE: I should have said "Influenced") small frame (with twirly movements like silk reeling or something), much different:
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Urs Krebs on Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:25 am

salcanzonieri wrote:This is typical Chen FaKe derived small frame, much different:


I'm pretty sure that there's no Small frame derived from Chen Fake. How did you come to the idea that this version derived from Chen Fake?
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby jbb73 on Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:56 am

Urs was faster. Sal, I think you´re confused here. As Urs mentioned, there is no "Small Frame" in the lineages of Chen Fake and before.
(The name itself is meaningless and a pure fabrication of Tang Hao in all probability.)

Here you can take a closer look at the transmission lines of what now is called Dajia und Xiaojia:
https://www.taijiquan-leippert.de/l/die-geheime-kunst/
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:34 am

ah, yes, I stand corrected, thank you.
What was called Small Frame wasn't seen in the New Frame of Chen FaKei, whether it came from Chen Zhaopei or Chen ZhouKui.

So, this brings it to the question (and I think Tang Hao was mostly always full of baloney and only used things to prove his pre-conceived notions),
if there is not really a Small Frame, then we are again leading to the conclusion that Chen YanXi's Lao Jia SHOULD look like Small Frame, because that's all there really is.

The second video, I posted and should have said INFLUENCED by the silk reeling movements found in Chen FaKe's lineages.
Because way too often you see people using the flying squid hands to look cool or something to show that they can do silk reeling in their movements, even if their lineage is not related to Chen FaKe's. I have all that squickly churning that just looks goofy and impractical for self defense, even some Yang people are doing it, ugh. so ugh.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby jbb73 on Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:48 am

salcanzonieri wrote:if there is not really a Small Frame, then we are again leading to the conclusion that Chen YanXi's Lao Jia SHOULD look like Small Frame, because that's all there really is.


Why should it? If you have a look at the transmission chart in the link I posted you can see, there are a lot of lines of what we nowadays call Small Frame (and they are very different in apparition and teaching methods); while the line of Chen Yanxi (himself omitted in the chart) has for long time no direct kinship with the Small Frame families (we always must separate genealogy charts and Quanpu charts).
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Bhassler on Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:47 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:The second video, I posted and should have said INFLUENCED by the silk reeling movements found in Chen FaKe's lineages.
Because way too often you see people using the flying squid hands to look cool or something to show that they can do silk reeling in their movements, even if their lineage is not related to Chen FaKe's. I have all that squickly churning that just looks goofy and impractical for self defense, even some Yang people are doing it, ugh. so ugh.


Well, in the direct family lineage from Chen Fake, i.e. Chen Yu, silk reeling isn't even really a thing. It would be more realistic to attribute the squid hands to the four tigers than to Chen Fake, or really anyone outside the commercial village lineage.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Bob on Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:07 am

Unfortunately we are stuck explaining why Wang Meng Bi referred to the Chen taijiquan he learned from Chen Fake as xiao jia - Did he misrepresent what he was taught? Not according what he taught my teacher and according to my teacher it was more compact and different from what Du Yize taught him. hmmm
Last edited by Bob on Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby jbb73 on Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:14 am

Bob wrote:Unfortunately we are stuck explaining why Wang Meng Bi referred to the Chen taijiquan he learned from Chen Fake as xiao jia - Did he misrepresent what he was taught?


Maybe I missed that, but: Where/of whom is stated/where did Wang Mengbi say, that what he learned from Chen Fake was Xiaojia?
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