Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:46 am

jbb73 wrote:
Bob wrote:Unfortunately we are stuck explaining why Wang Meng Bi referred to the Chen taijiquan he learned from Chen Fake as xiao jia - Did he misrepresent what he was taught?

Maybe I missed that, but: Where/of whom is stated/where did Wang Mengbi say, that what he learned from Chen Fake was Xiaojia?

That's news to me, too. And i don't like the idea that he was misrepresenting anything. This fascination that modern-day people have with arguing over names and drawing the most bizarre conclusions over them is frankly a bit disgusting. People back in the day cared more about things working than what it was called but in our ancestor worship, that little detail seemed to have slipped out. Maybe it should slip back in.
And for the record, Du taught multiple people xiaojia regardless of where he got it. If people would focus on ACTUALLY DOING this stuff instead of obsessing over names, you'd see that the form can change and become smaller or bigger. Videos are just a snapshot of something and don't tell anything near the whole story.
My teacher, Zhou laoshi who learned from Wang Meng-bi, always referred to it as laojia, the only other teacher in Taiwan I know who learned it from Wang also calls it laojia so it's laojia for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3ZASwfeNa0
Perhaps no one is paying attention but I already shared this clip once in this thread and this is the THIRD person I've identified in Taiwan that learned from Wang and he also refers to it as laojia in the title of the video. i really don't know what else people could want to hear at this point.
Time to put the QUAN back in taijiQUAN. Time to put the YANG back in YANG style taiji.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Bob on Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:23 pm

I don't want to continue to beat a dead horse as I've told these stories before but my teacher Tony Yang taught praying mantis in the park next to Wang Meng Bi and he liked Wang Meng Bi's flavor & fajing so he asked Liu Yunqiao if he could learn from him - Liu said it was good as Liu knew Wang Meng Bi from the army - said he was a jeep driver. Not ever accusing Wang Meng Bi of misrepresentation as his flavor is in what I learned. My teacher felt it close to the baji he learned and felt more comfortable with than Du's frame - it re-enforced what Liu said about meeting & exchanging with Chen Fake - maybe just a mix up - I've got a copy of a picture of Liu Yunqiao, Wang Meng Bi, Du Yuze and a 4th guy I forgot his.

I heard from people outside of Wutan that what Chen Fake taught earlier was different than what he taught later
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Graculus on Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:36 am

Wang Meng Bi's version of laojia yi lu as it has come down to us through separate lineages (Wutan and Zhou) raises some interesting questions.

Leaving it aside for a moment, the laojia I have seen can be broken into two main groups which might be described as pre-WWII (laojia practised in Taiwan whether from Chen Yanxi or Chen Fake comprises this group) and post WWII, (which means the mainland styles centred on Chen village and Beijing). As we are talking about Chen Yanxi, I'll stick to the former group. Although there are differences, all these pre-WWII lines seem more similar to each other than to the latter group, which is what I think Sal said.

Wang Men Bi's line should belong to this pre-WWII group but looks significantly different from all the other lines. Why? I don't think it is possible to know for sure, but I believe it likely that Chen Fa Ke used the same form to teach different aspects of the style, and Wang's line represents one of these. Zhou is interesting here as his style of huleijia has several distinct levels which use the same form but look different from each other. (Yes, I read this on Formosa Neijia's old blog which I was very pleased to see has not disappeared as I thought it had years ago). I haven't heard that any of Chen Fa Ke's students say this, although Feng Zhiqiang did say that his form was corrected by Chen Fa Ke nine times, which suggests some major overhauls/important tweaks.

This is not to say that I think any of these lines are more advanced than another based on the external form – the purpose of the form should be consistent with its movements. There are places in several of the forms where there are movements that seem to be "teaching" movements - simplified or exaggerated movements that instil habits that can then be refined into something more practical. In fact, to some extent, the whole of Chen Fa Ke's pre-WWII form is just that - the low, extended postures and slow, heavy feel are exaggerated as a training method. This means that in the right hands it might be far more beneficial than a later iteration that has been less well internalised.

Examples of the Du Yu Ze's line tend to exhibit higher stances, but here is an example (one of Matsuda Ryuchi's students) who demonstrates it with lower stances and very explicit (some might say rather stiff) movements. Sal (and some others?) might find it interesting for comparison's sake:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yYUdl4nz7s

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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:32 pm

I would not call it stiff but well defined
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:47 pm

Hmm, I learned Du Yu Ze style Chen Yi Lu and Er Lu, it was indeed called Lao Jia, from a student of the late BP Chan.
BP Chan moved to the Philippines, when World War II was over, learning Bagua Zhang and Xingyi Quan with Liang Ji Ci 梁紀慈 (Leung Kay-Chi in Cantonese), with whom he taught for many years. He later studied Yin Bagua and Chen Tai Ji Quan with Liang Ji Ci (Liu Yun Jiao's first disciple, later teaching in Boston. His wife is the daughter of Han Qing Tang).
Liang taught BP both old Chen and old Yang styles. Liang learned directly from Du Yu Ze and Liu Yun Jiao.

Also, I did classes from the late Charles Chen in NJ. Which I would think he learned all he knew from Liu Yun Jiao.

But, I have revised all I learned from looking at step by step online lessons by Ho Hong Tsai, which I found to be the best most detailed version.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:50 pm

Is anyone interested in the fact that over 80% of the Chen Yi Lu (Lao Jia) is found within the Shaolin Xie Quan form?
Including the signature postures only seen in Chen Lao Jia, which are identical to Shaolin Xie Quan, nowhere else.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Urs Krebs on Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:45 am

salcanzonieri wrote:Is anyone interested in the fact that over 80% of the Chen Yi Lu (Lao Jia) is found within the Shaolin Xie Quan form?
Including the signature postures only seen in Chen Lao Jia, which are identical to Shaolin Xie Quan, nowhere else.


Not really. Reading your book was more than enough for me. You're stucked with this idea of Shaolin being the origin. It never came into your mind that it could be the other way round. It's also common knowledge that Shaolin didn't create but integrated from outside, f.e. from the villages around the temple. These were people that were relocated from Shaanxi and Shanxi and brought Hongquan and other CMA with them. There's also no written record about Shaolin Martial Arts before Cheng Zongyou wrote his Shaolin Staff manual. Of course, legends were around all the time,but they are just legends. I respect your dedication to Shaolin though.
Last edited by Urs Krebs on Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Graculus on Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:16 am

I must admit I haven't seen that drop down move in any other form except Chen, and even then it is very rarely performed as a real drop (as it is in Xie Quan the videos you linked to in a previous thread a few months(?) ago), and although I can't always see the move to move correlations that you do, Sal, I agree that Xie Quan seems an important link in tracing the origins of Chen style.

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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby greytowhite on Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:47 am

salcanzonieri wrote:Is anyone interested in the fact that over 80% of the Chen Yi Lu (Lao Jia) is found within the Shaolin Xie Quan form?
Including the signature postures only seen in Chen Lao Jia, which are identical to Shaolin Xie Quan, nowhere else.


Do you have a video of this style? I can't seem to find it to look at. Would be a lot more interesting if I could compare with my eyes instead of reading a table of names.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:20 am

greytowhite wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:Is anyone interested in the fact that over 80% of the Chen Yi Lu (Lao Jia) is found within the Shaolin Xie Quan form?
Including the signature postures only seen in Chen Lao Jia, which are identical to Shaolin Xie Quan, nowhere else.


Do you have a video of this style? I can't seem to find it to look at. Would be a lot more interesting if I could compare with my eyes instead of reading a table of names.


Here is my chart showing how Chen follows 2 Shaolin forms move by move, using them as a frame for the Chen TJQ ideas.
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/images ... %20XYQ.pdf

Here is a video of me showing the Shaolin Xie Quan set, written in the chart above. So much like Chen


Bear in mind, I am doing a ROUGH walk through, I had a slipped disc in my back, pinching the main nerve. So, considering that
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:22 am

Graculus wrote:I must admit I haven't seen that drop down move in any other form except Chen, and even then it is very rarely performed as a real drop (as it is in Xie Quan the videos you linked to in a previous thread a few months(?) ago), and although I can't always see the move to move correlations that you do, Sal, I agree that Xie Quan seems an important link in tracing the origins of Chen style.

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Not just the drop down move, but also some other ones that are found nowhere else except in this Shaolin form and in Chen TJQ.
Watch my video that shows the Xie Quan form step by step.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:39 am

Urs Krebs wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:Is anyone interested in the fact that over 80% of the Chen Yi Lu (Lao Jia) is found within the Shaolin Xie Quan form?
Including the signature postures only seen in Chen Lao Jia, which are identical to Shaolin Xie Quan, nowhere else.


Not really. Reading your book was more than enough for me. You're stucked with this idea of Shaolin being the origin. It never came into your mind that it could be the other way round. It's also common knowledge that Shaolin didn't create but integrated from outside, f.e. from the villages around the temple. These were people that were relocated from Shaanxi and Shanxi and brought Hongquan and other CMA with them. There's also no written record about Shaolin Martial Arts before Cheng Zongyou wrote his Shaolin Staff manual. Of course, legends were around all the time,but they are just legends. I respect your dedication to Shaolin though.


ok so:
1 - Shaolin is not the temple, yes it is a place that gathers the local martial arts, that' s the whole point. Shaolin is a set of postural movements that link all the different versions. Without them it is not Shaolin Quan .All the neighboring villages practice Shaolin from different times periods Dengfeng does the forms from 1700s or so. Mugou does them from the 1500s.

2 - MANY researchers in China and in Europe have done extensive research that look at QuanPu books that families have preserved information with dates.
The dates show they were done earlier than Chen.

3 - Back in the 1908s researchers from France published a book with their findings about the Shaolin Xie Quan and how it is practiced in Henan and in Wen County (which Chen village is part of) there are villages that also practice something that looks like Chen Lao Jia form many hundreds of years. They don't call it Taiji, just Wen County MA. This is all well documented in my book, with photos from the French people and what they said in their book. In the book, Origin of Taijiquan...A New Hypothesis, written by T. Dufresne & J. Nguyen (translated from French to English by Pierre Racine), the authors note that the proximity between Chen village and the Shaolin area is very close. Wen Xian is only about 120 km from Song Shan (about 50 miles), a few days walking. The authors made a survey of all existing Shaolin sets that they could find. More than 30-40 techniques share the same name with Chen sets; and also making note that Shaolin Quan contains sets called 'paochui', just as Chen Taiji does, that also share their techniques. Considering that in ancient time’s names of techniques were kept secret, similar names can mean a close relationship existed between their arts.

4 - Chen WangTing has been documented in Chen family papers that have been examined by many that he met up with Li JiYu in MuGou village. According to what people have been able to find "Li Jiyu (李际遇, -1645) led a tax revolt rebellion against the Ming rulers that was successful in killing a corrupt official. Li Yiyu originally from Dengfeng county (Mogou village), was thought to be adept at Shaolin boxing methods. Many local heroes helped with that task and the capable Jiang Fa was one such supporter of Li’s rebellion, becoming one of his officers leading a small battalion of rebels. The central imperial government were sent in to resolve the issues and Li was sought for his crimes. Li disbanded his rebels and told them to enter hiding, whilst Li was later captured and executed. Jiang Fa sought refuge at Chen village where one of his followers/rebel soldiers was from. It is there that Jiang Fa in his late remaining years worked with Chen Wangting to integrate the Chen Family boxing with Jiang’s boxing methods. Jiang Fa had two main disciples, Xing Xihuai (Zhaobao Village) in the early years (est. 1620-1630) and Chen Wanting (Chen Village) in the later years (est. 1645-1655). " After Li massacred the Shaolin Monks, Chen Wangting (only 50 KM away) went to Shaolin and examined their library. Li JiYu showed their village Shaolin Hong Quan and other forms to Chen Wangting. Li JiYu created Shaolin forms that he taught to the Shaolin Monks, before turning against them.

5 - The Shaolin monks were forbidden by the Yuan and the Qing Dynasty rulers to practice martial arts. Thus, they did not let on that they knew MA. They hid the MA in the Qigong forms, such as Chan Yuan Gong and LouHan 13 Postures, you can do these Qigongs as Fighting forms and you can do them with a STAFF, the movements are identical regardless of the applications. So, anyone writing about what Shaolin monks practiced or not in the 1700s is suspect simple because the monks hid their knowledge.
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Re: Chen YanXi-Du YuZe - Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu

Postby Urs Krebs on Wed May 04, 2022 5:12 am

salcanzonieri wrote:3 - Back in the 1908s researchers from France published a book with their findings about the Shaolin Xie Quan and how it is practiced in Henan and in Wen County (which Chen village is part of) there are villages that also practice something that looks like Chen Lao Jia form many hundreds of years. They don't call it Taiji, just Wen County MA. This is all well documented in my book, with photos from the French people and what they said in their book. In the book, Origin of Taijiquan...A New Hypothesis, written by T. Dufresne & J. Nguyen (translated from French to English by Pierre Racine), the authors note that the proximity between Chen village and the Shaolin area is very close. Wen Xian is only about 120 km from Song Shan (about 50 miles), a few days walking. The authors made a survey of all existing Shaolin sets that they could find. More than 30-40 techniques share the same name with Chen sets; and also making note that Shaolin Quan contains sets called 'paochui', just as Chen Taiji does, that also share their techniques. Considering that in ancient time’s names of techniques were kept secret, similar names can mean a close relationship existed between their arts.


This was the only source i didn't read so far. So i ordered a copy of their book in the original french language as english wasn't available. The book has several parts about the history and you took the things you like out of context. In the first part there is the Chen history with short bios of important Ancestors of the Chen Family like Chen Bu, Chen Wangting, Chen Changxing, Chen Youben, Chen Youheng and many more. Then there are bios about Yu Dayou, Qi Jiguang, Chen Zongyou, Jiang Fa and Wang Zongyue who could have had some impact on Chen Style and others like Yang Luchan, Wu Yuxiang and Shen Jiazhen. Then there's a summary about the five family styles and Zhaobao Taijiquan. Then there's a chapter about Neijiaquan (yes, Wudang) beginning with Zhang Sanfeng. Then there's a discussion about the origins in connection with Shaolin. In the introduction it is clearly written that is nothing more than a hypothesis but leaning on some facts (which lefts open the door quite open for interpretation). They, as you do as well, mention f.e. the names of similar postures. This might be evident on one side but on the other side we find names like Bai He Liang Chi or Xian Ren Zhi Lu even in southern styles like Hung Kuen.

What is never mentioned when it comes to the distance between Shaolin Monastery and Chenjiagou is the Yellow River which wasn't easy to cross back then. During my first trip to China in 1989 it took me half day to Luoyang and the next day another 3 hours to Chenjiagou in a Limousine and they had a bridge for crossing the Yellow River (streets were bad back then).

The most evident point for ther hypothesis is delivered by a book about Xinyiquan. Jia Zhaoxuan explained in it that his family inherited this style since his ancestor Jia Shuwang learned it in the Shaolin temple and that his ancestor copied an old Shaolin manuscript in the temple during the reign of Kangxi (1661 - 1722). As the books in Shaolin are lost in during the destruction of the temple by warlord Shi Yousan in 1928, there is no proven fact, that this copied manuscript is what it is said to be. One of the conclusions for this hypothesis is also that both Xinyiquan and Chen Style are influenced by Qi Jiguangs Quanjing.

Altogether you're not presenting facts but some theories, and all have the obsessed tendency to Shaolin. It still could be the other way round as most styles today practiced in Shaolin and around Shaolin came from outside.
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