What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby GrahamB on Wed May 04, 2022 2:30 am

Ching Imperial Court dress:

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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby cloudz on Wed May 04, 2022 3:36 am

salcanzonieri wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I'm still partial to the idea that "Taijiquan" - the form and sequence - was invented in Beijing in the royal palace by WYX - who had the political power - and YLC as his martial arts guy as a way to unify the (Manchu) court around something nationalistic and "old" and "Chinese". They needed a history for it, so they linked it back to YLC learning in Chen village (a place with a martial reputation). The form and sequence then got retrofitted into Chen style, when they realised you can make good money from teaching this to people in Beijing which is a lot easier life than than being a bodyguard or local militia commander for the gov. :)

Hey, it's just an idea, but I think it's quite likely.

There are just so many unanswered questions about Yang style, Chen style and their relationship. Why did Yang never invite his beloved teacher to Beijing? Why was there no contact with him again after Yang arrived in Beijing? etc...


But, if you read my response to you in the thread on the other page, I posted an older Tong Bei Rou Quan form that has the same names of the moves and the same sequence of "the form".
So, "the form" already existed. Which is what was taught by Chen to YLC.
Hence, why he didn't teach the family style to YLC, he taught a Tong Bei Rou Quan set, which was already imbued with not only "the form" but what became called "Tai Chi". which in essence, starting in the 1500s already existed as a thing.


Don't the classics talk about 'long boxing' anyway.
the core postures were around 'forever' in various guises, no ?
who knows how long.

for example isn't the story that a military general identified these 32 postures to train an army quickly and these formed the basis of Chen system. Is that Cannon Fist - where does that fit in to this Sal ? as that's often mentioned (or was) as a Chen precursor to TCC. So I assume these represented a sort of 'core' of the best training postures/forms from the traditional Chinese cannon of the time.

but in the end it's a melting pot isn't it. The material to and from Shaolin would definitely be a primary source for the Chens, great work to have that background to draw from. kudos on the research.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 04, 2022 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby Bao on Wed May 04, 2022 5:59 am

GrahamB wrote:You put one possible answer below - a period of social turmoil and the Royal Court (Manchu - seen as invaders from the north) needed something to unify around and make them seem part of the native Chinese population. Tai Chi, with it's pre-made history of being created by Chang San Feng, an ancient Taoist, fit the bill perfectly.


It was really Wu Jianquan, one generation lower than Wu Quanyou and Wu Yuxiang, who spoke about Zhang Sanfeng and marketed this fiction. (He was a friend of the famous Wuxia writer Jin Yong if I am not mistaken.)

YLC was a trained security person and bodyguard. He was invited to the court to train the imperial guard. He taught combat and body guard stuff.


But was he really? That's the myth, but I suspect in reality he was there to train the Confucian elites, like Wu WuXiang and higher ups - kind of like an entertainer to the court. My suspicion is that the security guards got in on the act and learned it to, as they thought it was a good gig to get into. Money is a powerful motivator :)

... I'm sure YLC was good, and he had a long time to get even better at barehand by training in the Imperial Palace all the time, but he was not a trained soldier.


Two things does not automatically exclude the other. I've also heard and read things about YLC teaching martial arts to the elite who maybe not was solely interested in fighting. And I am sure there could have been money involved.

However, I have never said that YLC was a trained soldier. He didn't teach common soldiers. According o written sources, and as I wrote earlier, he was invited to train the imperial guard. Not to train foot soldiers

The Qing imperial guard (from wiki, yeah I know, not a good source but...):

Guard Corps
The Guard Corps (Manchu: bayara; simplified Chinese: 护军; traditional Chinese: 護軍; pinyin: hùjūn) was assigned to protect the imperial palace. Soldiers from the Manchu and Mongol banners would be admitted to serve in the unit. The Guard corps was about ten times the size of the Vanguard and Imperial Bodyguards, and was the largest formation of the Imperial Guards.

Vanguard
The Vanguard (Manchu: gabsihiyan; simplified Chinese: 前锋; traditional Chinese: 前鋒; pinyin: qiánfēng) corps was assigned to march ahead of the emperor when he left the palace. Soldiers from the Manchu and Mongol banners could join. The Vanguard consisted of about 1500 men.[2]

Imperial Bodyguard
The Imperial Bodyguard (Manchu: hiya; simplified Chinese: 领侍衛; traditional Chinese: 領侍衛; pinyin: lǐngshìwèi) corps was assigned to protect the emperor at all times. Only Manchu bannermen could join, and most members came from the upper three banners. Like the Vanguard, the Imperial Bodyguard consisted of about 1500 men.[2]


So those are security personnel, guards and body guards. Yang Luchan was trained in this. This is what the Chen family and YLC's teacher did. They worked on missions as hired guards and body guards. The Chen village back then was not a poor place. It has big mansions and there were rich traders, in silk particularly (yeah, the Buddhist "silk god" was and is still very popular in this area). The Chen guys were hired to do things as protecting homes, and the roads and valuable goods from robbers. So YLC followed them on their missions and was trained in this and had worked with it for a couple of decades before being invited to support the imperial palace at a time when there was a rebellion going on.

This is what many of the Taijiquan and IMA guys did. They worked with security. As Sun Lutang as another example, he had a bodyguard school in Beijing. This is where his fame comes from and why many locals in some areas remember him and stories about him. He used his people to protect the local markets from robbers. This was his own initiative and he didn't ask anyone a dime to do it.

But at that time, everyone had already started to use guns as rifles. A lot of their knowledge became obsolete and they had to close their schools and no one wanted their services. So they started to teach their things as health exercises instead, to secure their income.

Modern day Tai Chi teachers rarely teach people out of the goodness of their heart - it's usually a way to make money. Why would it be different the past?


IDK about YLC's time... But I know that many traditional teachers back in time would never ask a dime. Sun Lutang's daughter for instance, she taught many, but never asked for anything. Her students had to force gifts on her before she took anything. And this is how it usually was in the good ol' non capitalist days. Asking for money back in those days was seen as something bad. People would look on you as a beggar. Instead, people traded things or services. An old master might need someone to take care of his home and fix things. Then a student could offer himself to do so. Students to the old masters would often give their teachers gifts, help them out with practical things, make dinners and invite them on dinners. But money was very seldom exchanged. So there is certainly a big difference between commercial teachers of today, and I would believe, most "masters" and teachers of the past.
Last edited by Bao on Wed May 04, 2022 6:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby GrahamB on Wed May 04, 2022 6:19 am

Here you go Bao - I think you dropped these?

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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby Bao on Wed May 04, 2022 6:38 am

GrahamB wrote:Here you go Bao - I think you dropped these?


I think you lost sense again? :P

Why am I not surprised. Whenever you don't know how to respond, you always come up with nonsense. :-\

Incredibly predictable. -shrug-
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby GrahamB on Wed May 04, 2022 7:36 am

No, you just lost your sense of humour and had a hissy fit, as always -shrug-
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby windwalker on Wed May 04, 2022 7:36 am

A little more information to consider

As for deceiving the prince of Qing Dynasty for all those years, that is just not possible for someone in his position.

First: before coming to Beijing Yang Luchan spent his entire adult life as an indentured servant.

He was freed only because his master died, and it was unseemly for an single adult male his age to be living alone with the widow of the master. A commoner cannot even loiter outside a prince’s palace without permission.

Before coming to Beijing, Yang Luchan first went back to his hometown of Yongnian. There he seriously injured an opponent during a fight. The challenger’s family and clan sought revenge. When Yang Luchan came to Beijing, he was able to keep a low profile for a while, taking a job as a regular family tutor (literature, not martial art) for the owner of a famous pickled vegetable shop.
However when one day a band of 20 brigands tried to rob the factory shop, he single-handedly defeated all of them. Soon the old enemies showed up at his door again.

The shop he worked at – Tianyishun Jiangyuan (天义顺酱园), supplies the imperial family. The owner knew Duan Wang, the cousin to the emperor. The shop owner Zhang Fengqi (张凤岐) introduced Yang to the prince, with the idea that with him serving the prince, trouble will stop following him once and for all.

And that was the way things worked out. Not only did it provide livelihood, honor, and prestige, but the association with the prince provided security and peace of mind as well. Why would Yang Luchan, whose life has been mostly impoverished and troubled up to this point, do anything so outrageous and daring as secretly creating two systems of teaching and deceive the person he depended everything on?!






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The 438 of professional wrestlers at Shan Pu Ying (善扑营) belong to but one of the three capitol city garrisons.

The one where Yang Luchan, Liu Zhijun, and Song Mailun taught at – Shen Ji Ying, had over 2,000 instructors/weapons experts who led the training of 30,000 strong palace guards. That plus the battle-hardened agents of Big Ten security companies (Biaoju), members of Big Six martial arts of the north, and all the people who flock to the city to make a name for themselves,

Beijing during Qing Dynasty represented the peak of development and growth of traditional martial art.


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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed May 04, 2022 8:24 am

GrahamB wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I'm still partial to the idea that "Taijiquan" - the form and sequence - was invented in Beijing in the royal palace by WYX - who had the political power - and YLC as his martial arts guy as a way to unify the (Manchu) court around something nationalistic and "old" and "Chinese". They needed a history for it, so they linked it back to YLC learning in Chen village (a place with a martial reputation). The form and sequence then got retrofitted into Chen style, when they realised you can make good money from teaching this to people in Beijing which is a lot easier life than than being a bodyguard or local militia commander for the gov. :)

Hey, it's just an idea, but I think it's quite likely.

There are just so many unanswered questions about Yang style, Chen style and their relationship. Why did Yang never invite his beloved teacher to Beijing? Why was there no contact with him again after Yang arrived in Beijing? etc...


But, if you read my response to you in the thread on the other page, I posted an older Tong Bei Rou Quan form that has the same names of the moves and the same sequence of "the form".
So, "the form" already existed. Which is what was taught by Chen to YLC.
Hence, why he didn't teach the family style to YLC, he taught a Tong Bei Rou Quan set, which was already imbued with not only "the form" but what became called "Tai Chi". which in essence, starting in the 1500s already existed as a thing.


I don't see how that proves a Chen/Yang connection - maybe that's where YLC got it from or was 'inspired by' when he 'made it up' in Beijing? Impossible to say. But there's no need to add Chen to the equation at that point.


The pre-existence of the Tong Bei Rou Quan form only proves that "the form" already existed and went to Chen Village since Chen WangTing's time.

No factual proof has so far been found that YLC really went to Chen village. Just a novel that made up the whole servant thing, etc etc.

The only thing we can see is that the Yang and Chen forms are very much like each other.

Ok, so I learned an old Yang form that is pre-YCF. It comes from Tain ZhaoLin and from Wu Hai Chuan.
It is much more like Chen Yi Lu, and has the stuff that YCF took out or smoothed over.
It has some fajing, it has the double flying kick, and the intro is the same.

It has some points that were changed from what we know today as Chen Yi Lu - Lao Jia. but we don't know if it was already that way (from Chen) or Yang changed it.
it has a number of elements from Shaolin derived Hong Quan (Fair Lady was greatly changed this way, for example).

The only thing we can say factual is that both Yang (pre-YCF) and Chen Yi Lu (pre-CFK) forms are almost the same with a few differences.
Which came first? Who knows right now.

Where did "the form" come from? Obviously Tong Bei Rou Quan (which was a blend of Shaolin and Song Xi Nei Jia Quan),. and for a very long time, since 1500s.
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby windwalker on Wed May 04, 2022 11:37 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAAvUUCpVuE

Origin of Taichi has always been one of the most heated debates within CMA community in China,
largely due to the massive amount of profit stand to be gained by claiming to the original source of one of the most practiced cma in the world.


some may have seen it already,, :)

found the channel interesting
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 04, 2022 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby everything on Wed May 04, 2022 11:44 am

I was going to ask why is this so interesting, why not just practice whatever is "good stuff" to you ....

.... but I forgot about the "show me the money" aspect, duh.... ;D ;D :'( :P
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby windwalker on Wed May 04, 2022 11:47 am

everything wrote:I was going to ask why is this so interesting, why not just practice whatever is "good stuff" to you ....

.... but I forgot about the "show me the money" aspect, duh.... ;D ;D :'( :P



Find the history interesting , not so important in some aspects :)

Good stuff,,,,kinda depends on level of understanding and intended use,
as to what "good stuff" may mean to a person...

Good stuff, usually the stuff one likes :)
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 04, 2022 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed May 04, 2022 4:18 pm

Chasing the history stuff made me learn material that was at the root of a style, which made me understand better and master doing the form and for applying it, and all the internals and energetics as well.
Also, it made me see how different styles are ultimately related (via learning Who taught What to Who when and where),
Again it made me a better martial artist. Because I learned not only how to do something by why it is done.
History brought enlightenment.
Enlightenment brought practical use, which made postural movements more efficient and effective.
Which made me happy and made it work when I needed it to work (both as self defense and as health enhancement)
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Wed May 04, 2022 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby Appledog on Wed May 04, 2022 5:13 pm

The problem is we know for an utter and absolute fact that the chen forms are based off of pre-existing martial arts, and the yang forms are not sufficiently different to grant them the status of a separate or new martial art. We also know that all of the additional moves that appear in Yang style come from the arts that Yang studied before he learned from the Chens. It is thus an incontrovertible fact that Yang's form is based on Chen's and not the other way around.
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby everything on Wed May 04, 2022 6:29 pm

We know BJJ came from Judo ... but is totally 1000% better .... J/k
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Re: What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

Postby cloudz on Thu May 05, 2022 2:48 am

All this talk about Shaolin, as if it birthed all this martial art.. when you say tongbei rou quan was a mixture of a neijia style and shaolin. What was that 'shaolin' or was it invented by shaolin, if it was still extant beyond shaolin once it got there, what was it ?

agree very much that you can get great insight doing related styles.
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