What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

[Bao]

The problem is we know for an utter and absolute fact that the chen forms are based off of pre-existing martial arts, and the yang forms are not sufficiently different to grant them the status of a separate or new martial art. We also know that all of the additional moves that appear in Yang style come from the arts that Yang studied before he learned from the Chens. It is thus an incontrovertible fact that Yang's form is based on Chen's and not the other way around.

No, it's certainly not "an incontrovertible fact that Yang's form is based on Chen's and not the other way around".

Yes, it's an incontrovertible fact that YLC studied with CXX. I have no doubt about that. But there's no proof whatsoever that any of the modern Chen forms was anything like what YLC studied. Everything else than

It's also an incontrovertible fact that YLC studied other arts, and amongst those, he is mainly known for studying Shaolin Xiaohongquan. We also have strong indications that the Chen family studied arts as Tongbei and Xingyiquan. We don't know from exactly what sources YLC learned the different things he collected together in his "tai chi". And we don't know how YLC connected elements from different styles into his form.

First of all, you cannot compare the Chen style with the Yang style today. You need to go back in time. We don't know exactly how YLC's form or forms looked like, just as we don't know exactly what the Chen family fist back then looked like or how they practiced.

I have a strong feeling that Ma Yueliang was 100% correct when he said that the Chen Family Fist had been lost and later reconstructed. The Laojia could have been constructed using Yang Cheng Fu's form, just as well YLC might have created a form similar to what Chen style looks today. And, what YLC learned from CXX, could have been more or les identical to the common Yang long form today, or to any of those traditional Yang long form variations.

There is no historical proof that points more to one version of these statements than to the other.

But most of all, this discussion is completely pointless. It has no value other than for commercial branding and marketing.

[shawnsegler]

Bao to Graham:

Why am I not surprised. Whenever you don't know how to respond, you always come up with nonsense.

You know, Bao...you're using too many words in your response. Let me make that quote more efficient and closer to the truth for you.

Bao to Graham (fixed)

You always come up with nonsense.

There you go.

Cheers!

S

[Bao]

You know, Bao...you're using too many words in your response. Let me make that quote more efficient and closer to the truth for you.

Bao to Graham (fixed)

You always come up with nonsense.

There you go.

Cheers!

S

Ha ha!

Thank you for your advice. Yeah, I should learn to use less words. And maybe try to not waste my time responding to certain things.
...Or maybe to certain people.

Cheers!

[salcanzonieri]

The problem is we know for an utter and absolute fact that the chen forms are based off of pre-existing martial arts, and the yang forms are not sufficiently different to grant them the status of a separate or new martial art. We also know that all of the additional moves that appear in Yang style come from the arts that Yang studied before he learned from the Chens. It is thus an incontrovertible fact that Yang's form is based on Chen's and not the other way around.

No, it's certainly not "an incontrovertible fact that Yang's form is based on Chen's and not the other way around".

Yes, it's an incontrovertible fact that YLC studied with CXX. I have no doubt about that. But there's no proof whatsoever that any of the modern Chen forms was anything like what YLC studied. Everything else than

It's also an incontrovertible fact that YLC studied other arts, and amongst those, he is mainly known for studying Shaolin Xiaohongquan. We also have strong indications that the Chen family studied arts as Tongbei and Xingyiquan. We don't know from exactly what sources YLC learned the different things he collected together in his "tai chi". And we don't know how YLC connected elements from different styles into his form.

First of all, you cannot compare the Chen style with the Yang style today. You need to go back in time. We don't know exactly how YLC's form or forms looked like, just as we don't know exactly what the Chen family fist back then looked like or how they practiced.

I have a strong feeling that Ma Yueliang was 100% correct when he said that the Chen Family Fist had been lost and later reconstructed. The Laojia could have been constructed using Yang Cheng Fu's form, just as well YLC might have created a form similar to what Chen style looks today. And, what YLC learned from CXX, could have been more or les identical to the common Yang long form today, or to any of those traditional Yang long form variations.

There is no historical proof that points more to one version of these statements than to the other.

But most of all, this discussion is completely pointless. It has no value other than for commercial branding and marketing.

hmm, I don't think so.
Obviously "the form" existed for a long time and you can see it through the ages.
You have the Tong Bei Rou Quan, which is the starting point of "the form" (the Lao Jia Yi Lu/Yang Lao Jia)
then you can see that the form Chen YanXi taught to people is the same form as "the form".
You can see that Shanghai Chen style, though a lot different in details, is still "the form".
You can see that the Chen Small Frame practiced in different villages outside of Chen village do "the form".
You can see that Yang TJQ does "the form".
You can see "the form everywhere that has linages existing outside of Chen village (people left due to marrying away from Chen village).

So, "the form" is not something put together later.

Even if Chen FaKe recreated "the form" from looking at Yang style, it is still the same form as done outside of Chen village. Du YuZe is the same generation as Chen FaKe.
And Taiwan Chen is not too different from Yang and Chen from Chen village.
And Old Yang as taught by those that were students of Wu ZhenHai and Tian ZhouLin clearly is intermediate between Chen Yan Xi and YCF versions.

So , , ,

[Quigga]

To be fair I'd just trust Sal's words when it comes to CMA history

He has forgotten more about that than I will ever know this life

[Bao]

hmm, I don't think so.
Obviously "the form" existed for a long time and you can see it through the ages.
You have the Tong Bei Rou Quan, which is the starting point of "the form" (the Lao Jia Yi Lu/Yang Lao Jia)
then you can see that the form Chen YanXi taught to people is the same form as "the form".
You can see that Shanghai Chen style, though a lot different in details, is still "the form".
You can see that the Chen Small Frame practiced in different villages outside of Chen village do "the form".
You can see that Yang TJQ does "the form".
You can see "the form everywhere that has linages existing outside of Chen village (people left due to marrying away from Chen village).

So, "the form" is not something put together later.

Even if Chen FaKe recreated "the form" from looking at Yang style, it is still the same form as done outside of Chen village. Du YuZe is the same generation as Chen FaKe.
And Taiwan Chen is not too different from Yang and Chen from Chen village.
And Old Yang as taught by those that were students of Wu ZhenHai and Tian ZhouLin clearly is intermediate between Chen Yan Xi and YCF versions.

So , , ,

I merely put two different narratives against each other. Neither of them contradicts what you are saying, that "the form" didn't start by either the Chen or the Yang families. The history that you propose, which I tend to believe in, also doesn't contradict the possibilities that both CXX and YLC also practiced other styles and brought different knowledges together to shape their own arts.

Anything that could be called Taijiquan, is still more than "just a form".

[Urs Krebs]

I have a strong feeling that Ma Yueliang was 100% correct when he said that the Chen Family Fist had been lost and later reconstructed. The Laojia could have been constructed using Yang Cheng Fu's form, just as well YLC might have created a form similar to what Chen style looks today. And, what YLC learned from CXX, could have been more or les identical to the common Yang long form today, or to any of those traditional Yang long form variations.

For me it sounds you're just making assumptions. Do you have any other sources for that beside Ma Yueliang who in my opinion wasn't a source for Chen Style?

[Bhassler]

We also have strong indications that the Chen family studied arts as Tongbei and Xingyiquan.

Do you mean Xin Yi? Taiji is older than Xing Yi, and Xin Yi was roughly contemporary with Chen style. What are the indications that Xin(g)yi was an influence?

[Bao]

We also have strong indications that the Chen family studied arts as Tongbei and Xingyiquan.

Do you mean Xin Yi? Taiji is older than Xing Yi, and Xin Yi was roughly contemporary with Chen style. What are the indications that Xin(g)yi was an influence?

I should probably have written both. Xinyi might have been there earlier. Jarek writes about something here: http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji.html

"Important Words on Martial Applications" (Yong Wu Yao Yan) is my translation of a famous text attributed to Chen Changxing. The text can be found in the book "Chen Family Taijiquan Handed down through Generations" (People's Sports Press, Beijing 1990) written by Chen Xiaowang. The text is, in my opinion, a compilation of sentences taken almost directly from Xinyi Liuhe boxing manuals, and can be considered a proof of the influence Xinyi had on Taijiquan. My guess is that "Important Words on Martial Applications" originally come from "San San Liu Quan Pu" (Three Three Six Boxing Manual) which was kept by Chen clan and lost in the thirties or forties of this century. This manual, also called "Six Harmony Boxing Manual" (Liu He Quan Pu - although some say that San San Liu Quan Pu was a re-written version of Liu He Quan Pu according to Taiji principles; it was done by Chen Xin)

(I guess it's the same text as mentioned here in a very recent thread https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... e43bce0d10 ?

Chen Xin seems to have incorporated several passagers from different Xinyi and Xingyi texts in his book. Except for parts from the San San Liu Quan Pu mentioned above, there's also a segment that is almost identical to something in a short Xingyi text by Li Luo-Neng (born 1796), "Zhan Shou Yao Fa" ("important hand combat methods).

[Appledog]

I have a strong feeling that Ma Yueliang was 100% correct when he said that the Chen Family Fist had been lost and later reconstructed. The Laojia could have been constructed using Yang Cheng Fu's form, just as well YLC might have created a form similar to what Chen style looks today. And, what YLC learned from CXX, could have been more or les identical to the common Yang long form today, or to any of those traditional Yang long form variations.

Lol, that's really ignorant of Ma to say so (he should know better). For one, the art wasn't lost in the village. It was 'almost lost'. There are (and were) plenty of people who still practiced the art there. Maybe not to the standard of Chen Fa-ke, but then, who would be?

What is a little known fact is that the reason why the art was disappearing in the village is because the people in the village left for other places, most notably Xi'an. There are plenty of preserved forms around, all over the place. The art wasn't lost and then reconstructed. It came back when people started coming back to the village. And not everyone did -- there is still a large number of Chen people in Xi'an from what I hear.

Knowing this would you still say it's possible the art was lost and then reconstructed? I don't know, maybe. Some people have motives for pushing this kind of narrative.

There's still the mystery of how Chen and his cohorts were so good at push hands. Dunno, Bao. The reconstruction angle never really made sense, but now we know it's not true for a fact.

[Bob]

Over 25 years ago I knew a solid practioner whose connections were in the Chen Village - No BS kind of guy everything gets personalized at some point - his speculative theory was the original Chen's forms were probably closer to Yang Chengfu's form - who really knows what Yang Luchan's form and flavor looked like - everything is pretty much inferred from secondary sources at best.

[Appledog]

Well, there are some interesting points to consider here, such as then Chen ZhongShan lineage; Chen ZhongShan -- Chen PinSan (1849–1929) -- Chen Xong-Yuan -- Chen HongLie (1888–1945) -- Chen Li-Xian (1923–1983), who taught son and daughter Chen Pei-shan and Chen Pei-ju.

Chen Liqing was a teacher in a Xi'an middle school. She was founder and chairman of Xi’an Cuihua Wuguan (a Martial Art institute). She was titled as “Great Taijiquan Master” at the Annual Taijiquan Exchange Competition held in Wenxian County in 1994.

Chen LiXian was awarded as the National Instructor of Martial Art by the Chinese government in 1983. One of his responsibilities he was famous for in the Chen family was secret keeper of several martial arts manuals. He was vice-president of the Wushu Association of Qinyang City.

Chen Peiju graduated from the Professional Martial Arts of Beijing Sport University and is/was the Senior coach of Henan Wushu Sports Man­agement Center. A Provincial-level intangible cultural heritage project representative inheritor of Henan; National Wushu referee and Chinese Wushu 7th Dan; Chairman of International Society of Chen Taijiquan; Commissioner of the Martial Art Association of Henan Province; Member of the Committee of Experts in Intangible Cultural Heritage of Henan Province.

Chen Peishan is chairman of the International Society of Chen Taijiquan (ISCT), Chairman of Japan Chen Family Taijiquan Association (JCTA).

I think it is too difficult to say the art was lost and later reconstructed.

[Bhassler]

We also have strong indications that the Chen family studied arts as Tongbei and Xingyiquan.

Do you mean Xin Yi? Taiji is older than Xing Yi, and Xin Yi was roughly contemporary with Chen style. What are the indications that Xin(g)yi was an influence?

I should probably have written both. Xinyi might have been there earlier. Jarek writes about something here: http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji.html

"Important Words on Martial Applications" (Yong Wu Yao Yan) is my translation of a famous text attributed to Chen Changxing. The text can be found in the book "Chen Family Taijiquan Handed down through Generations" (People's Sports Press, Beijing 1990) written by Chen Xiaowang. The text is, in my opinion, a compilation of sentences taken almost directly from Xinyi Liuhe boxing manuals, and can be considered a proof of the influence Xinyi had on Taijiquan. My guess is that "Important Words on Martial Applications" originally come from "San San Liu Quan Pu" (Three Three Six Boxing Manual) which was kept by Chen clan and lost in the thirties or forties of this century. This manual, also called "Six Harmony Boxing Manual" (Liu He Quan Pu - although some say that San San Liu Quan Pu was a re-written version of Liu He Quan Pu according to Taiji principles; it was done by Chen Xin)

(I guess it's the same text as mentioned here in a very recent thread https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... e43bce0d10 ?

Chen Xin seems to have incorporated several passagers from different Xinyi and Xingyi texts in his book. Except for parts from the San San Liu Quan Pu mentioned above, there's also a segment that is almost identical to something in a short Xingyi text by Li Luo-Neng (born 1796), "Zhan Shou Yao Fa" ("important hand combat methods).

Thanks for the clarification. Chen Xin's book was not written until 1920, and he was not known as particularly expert in gongfu, anyways. He was more of a scholar, which is evident if you've seen his book-- it's largely a treatise on popular (and generic) qi theory. And CXW's book, of course, was written well after Chen taiji became a multi-million dollar business venture for the family. I don't think either could really constitute evidence of what happened 250 years prior-- it seems more likely to me that they were partaking of the well-established tradition of tying existing practices to ancient ancestry in order to boost status. Either way, though, I appreciate you providing the sources.

[salcanzonieri]

So, let's look at something. These are the Hong Quan forms that influenced the development of TJQ.

During the 1500s, Mogou Village practiced this Xiao Hong Quan form. Moqou village preserved Shaolin of the 1500s. Li JiYu was a Hong Quan master and practiced at the temple, He was a cousin (the Li family) of Chen WangTing. Li JiYu started the anti-tax rebellion against the corrupt government officials. He and his whole family was wiped out later when caught. Chen WangTing was sent there to get him to turn himself in. The mysterious "Jiang Fa" was in Mogou village when he met Chen WangTing. Li and Chen and Jiang discussed martial arts at some point. And the Mogou Hong quan was taught to Chen WangTing.
SO, you can see this form is most like Chen Pao Cui (the Er Lu of Lao Jia).


By the time of Yang Lu Chan, 1700s, Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan outside of MoGou village was done like this (and it is from this, I think, where the changes were made to Chen Yi Lu
This form was created by Li Sou, the teacher of two of Tong Bei founder Dong Cheng's Shaolin teachers (Who taught him Rou Quan, Pao Chui, this Hong Quan, TZ Chang Quan)


By the 1800s, Xiao Hong was more evolved, as can be seen in Ruan village, Henan:


The final version is this Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan

[Urs Krebs]

So, let's look at something. These are the Hong Quan forms that influenced the development of TJQ.

During the 1500s, Mogou Village practiced this Xiao Hong Quan form. Moqou village preserved Shaolin of the 1500s. Li JiYu was a Hong Quan master and practiced at the temple, He was a cousin (the Li family) of Chen WangTing. Li JiYu started the anti-tax rebellion against the corrupt government officials. He and his whole family was wiped out later when caught. Chen WangTing was sent there to get him to turn himself in. The mysterious "Jiang Fa" was in Mogou village when he met Chen WangTing. Li and Chen and Jiang discussed martial arts at some point. And the Mogou Hong quan was taught to Chen WangTing.
SO, you can see this form is most like Chen Pao Cui (the Er Lu of Lao Jia).


By the time of Yang Lu Chan, 1700s, Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan outside of MoGou village was done like this (and it is from this, I think, where the changes were made to Chen Yi Lu
This form was created by Li Sou, the teacher of two of Tong Bei founder Dong Cheng's Shaolin teachers (Who taught him Rou Quan, Pao Chui, this Hong Quan, TZ Chang Quan)

I'm really wondering where you get your information from. I made some research on the second form too as i learned it when i lived in China in 1991 and i was told different names over the decades for this routine (Da Hong Quan, Da Xiao Hong Quan, Lao Jia Xiao Hong Quan or just Xiao Hong Quan). F.e. i had exchange with the guy who made the first video and who lived for a decade in the Dengfeng area and researched a lot about the different Hong Quan variants in the villages. Li Sou was not mentioned. Can you give more facts and sources for that claim?