What if Yang Lu Chan didn't change the form? Maybe Chen did?

[salcanzonieri]

So, if you look at how old people do the Chen forms, they gloss over the strenuous stuff.
Was Chen Changxing already too old when he taught Yang?
Like in these Chen videos?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uu7ghVNt4M&t=43s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj1EukidzkQ

[origami_itto]

What if what we know as Chen style was reverse engineered from what was publicly known of Yang at the time?

[salcanzonieri]

Well, I wasn't being serious, there are other changes in Yang style that Chen doesn't have.
But they aren't new things, just modifications..

Anyway, to answer you question, no. I have proven that the Yi Lu form already existed before.
Please read my post and see, I even have all the form names in historical order:
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29567&sid=0bf304d61ea03e2cebfeb71149c97626

[salcanzonieri]

Look how different this Yang Small Frame form is.
The lineage is Yang Luchan - Liu Jinbao (Manchu Guard) - Zhang Zhengxue

[origami_itto]

Well, I wasn't being serious, there are other changes in Yang style that Chen doesn't have.
But they aren't new things, just modifications..

Anyway, to answer you question, no. I have proven that the Yi Lu form already existed before.
Please read my post and see, I even have all the form names in historical order:
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29567&sid=0bf304d61ea03e2cebfeb71149c97626

Okay but that's a list of names written down in 1930. Is that proof of anything?

[wayne hansen]

I saw the first two 40 years ago
They have been slowed down to prove the point

[salcanzonieri]

Well, I wasn't being serious, there are other changes in Yang style that Chen doesn't have.
But they aren't new things, just modifications..

Anyway, to answer you question, no. I have proven that the Yi Lu form already existed before.
Please read my post and see, I even have all the form names in historical order:
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29567&sid=0bf304d61ea03e2cebfeb71149c97626

Okay but that's a list of names written down in 1930. Is that proof of anything?

no, no. Read further down, that's GrahamB's post. After that is mine with all the names of the forms in chronological order.

[cloudz]

someone called Chen did change it, it's called Chen small frame.
You know who went there to learn it ?

It was passed down through Yang Ban Hou in Yang style, which is why his style was known as small frame and his brothers middle frame..
Yang Lu Chan could have learnt from both men/ styles. In the end it's a different way to essentially do the same thing.
Or both these Chen teachers were well aware of the others style and how to teach it.

[Bao]

Two things:

(1) In the Chen village, they trained many different styles. Chen family boxing might have been mixed with things as local Shaolin after YCF left. You need to realise that "styles" were not as fixed into systems and specific curriculums as today. So the idea that Chen family style changed earlier or later are equally valid. However...

(2) What I find interesting is that Wu Yuxiang, who went to Chen village in search of YLC teacher (but studied briefly with Chen Qingping) never said anything about that what was taught in the Chen village would be different from what YLC taught. He only said that he got some missing pieces that he didn't get from YLC. But none of the Chen style "Buddhist Shaolin" movements as Buddha Pounds mortar, that YLC presumably should have had taken away, can be find in WYX's Wu style. But still, WYX's form seems to have been derived straight from the Chen small frame. So this suggests that those movements were not found in Chen family boxing taught to YLC and WYX.

[everything]

At the opposite end of the spectrum, what did Sun change from Hao? And why? He was already a XingYi master, lineage holder under Guo, had also trained with Cheng Ting Hua, who said he taught Sun everything he knew, and Sun should go study with Taoist masters next. Then apparently trained qigong before tai chi at mid life. So to me, that seems far more interesting/compelling from the “Big Three” point of view.

[Bao]

At the opposite end of the spectrum, what did Sun change from Hao? And why?

What he changed is little. But IMHO, it would be better to ask if something today is practiced as it was intended. Are the vital principles taught and preserved properly?

He mentions the same kind of theory in his books. For instance, in his Bagua book, he speaks about developing and using pre-heaven /premortal qi. So it seems like he wanted to focus his arts on traditional health and long life concepts.

But you should understand that modern Hao was not standardized until later, so the Sun style is based on a somewhat earlier expression of Wu Yuxiang's tai chi compared to what you commonly see today in Hao.

...

These are all good examples, IMHO. They all look very active and they all have a certain tension, or stretching quality, in their frame. You can see something similar if you look at the pictures of Sun Lutang as well. Most of what you see today from stylists from both Hao and Sun looks more sloppy and lazy.

Sun
https://youtu.be/3AuGupAIUds
[youtube]https://youtu.be/3AuGupAIUds[/youtube]

Hao
https://youtu.be/BPvAFPD8x4E
[youtube]https://youtu.be/BPvAFPD8x4E[/youtube]

Old Wu (Hao) Coiling Frame
https://youtu.be/ELEPd-GyyhI
[youtube]https://youtu.be/ELEPd-GyyhI[/youtube]

Old Wu (Hao) Old Frame (+ "Striking the Eight Gates")
https://youtu.be/PHRgnQmo3a4
[youtube]https://youtu.be/PHRgnQmo3a4[/youtube]

[Trip]

Sun
https://youtu.be/3AuGupAIUds


Hao
https://youtu.be/BPvAFPD8x4E


Old Wu (Hao) Coiling Frame
https://youtu.be/ELEPd-GyyhI


Old Wu (Hao) Old Frame (+ "Striking the Eight Gates")
https://youtu.be/PHRgnQmo3a4

[everything]

Thanks. Some reasons I find Sun interesting (may repeat some of above):

- came from XingYi and Bagua high level
- delved deep into qigong next
- his tai chi is indirectly from Yang AND Chen (Zhaobao) via Wu/Hao
- he adds the open/close qigong
- his instructions on energy are mostly easy to follow once you get to the right stage
- seems to have Bagua influenced footwork
- may have started or influenced the emphasis on health
- heavy emphasis on these arts following “The Way” philosophical aspect
- ( one of if not ) the key people to group the Big 3
- early author on IMA
- key influencer in the larger scene
- was a “fighter”, trained “fighters” not just “normal” people

I think he had a more unique vantage point than a lot of the other Biggies

[wayne hansen]

I love sun but would love to delve deep into Hao
I get it on one level but it completely mystifies me on another
Thanks for the clips above

[cloudz]

Two things:

(1) In the Chen village, they trained many different styles. Chen family boxing might have been mixed with things as local Shaolin after YCF left. You need to realise that "styles" were not as fixed into systems and specific curriculums as today. So the idea that Chen family style changed earlier or later are equally valid. However...

(2) What I find interesting is that Wu Yuxiang, who went to Chen village in search of YLC teacher (but studied briefly with Chen Qingping) never said anything about that what was taught in the Chen village would be different from what YLC taught. He only said that he got some missing pieces that he didn't get from YLC. But none of the Chen style "Buddhist Shaolin" movements as Buddha Pounds mortar, that YLC presumably should have had taken away, can be find in WYX's Wu style. But still, WYX's form seems to have been derived straight from the Chen small frame. So this suggests that those movements were not found in Chen family boxing taught to YLC and WYX.

Or they both changed those parts, because frankly they were taoist leaning.
we know that the 32 posture framework was abandoned and changed to 37.

the new framework was probably Long-fist.

I think YLC came away with Lao Jia and small frame knowledge and in some way sought to combine that.
WYX probably had a good grounding from YLC so combined the Chen small frame with what was likely a 'middle frame' from YLC
The Chen teacher would have been the senior to both, so WYX probably felt he should lean to that style where YLC would have been reluctant to let go of his main teachers influence..

Yang Ban Hou learnt as well under WYX, and I think it's this influence that brought a distinction with his brothers taiji.

In the end I think the Yangs where creative and understood taiji..
what they sought to teach was not giving people a fish but teaching how to fish.