Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby marvin8 on Tue May 03, 2022 11:40 pm

Armchair Violence
May 3, 2022

A video for nerds in which I examine why centerline theory does not apply to hand-to-hand fighting by comparing it with longsword fighting.

(Mostly) Edited by Alexander Thill! His page: https://www.fiverr.com/s2/3c90da8d75

Thanks to Metrolina Martial Arts for letting me film in their gym! Their channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqUADi ... 1HUJO5zgtg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aou_K7KgtQ
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby Bao on Wed May 04, 2022 6:44 am

-loco-

He really doesn’t know anything about Chinese martial arts. He takes a theory from western weaponry and tries to debunk something he has heard about briefly without understanding it.

If I was mean, I would probably say something like that his way of describing how to punch with the shoulders makes me believe that he punches like a girl. But I guess I won't... :-X

... I really hated this clip, but I guess I don't need to say that either ... :-\
Last edited by Bao on Wed May 04, 2022 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8335
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby wayne hansen on Wed May 04, 2022 4:52 pm

Agreed
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4421
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby marvin8 on Wed May 04, 2022 9:25 pm

Bao wrote:-loco-

He really doesn’t know anything about Chinese martial arts. He takes a theory from western weaponry and tries to debunk something he has heard about briefly without understanding it.

If I was mean, I would probably say something like that his way of describing how to punch with the shoulders makes me believe that he punches like a girl. But I guess I won't... :-X

... I really hated this clip, but I guess I don't need to say that either ... :-\

You may have misunderstood him. The OP video is saying not to line up your guard on the centerline, because punches come from different angles. Rasmus says the same thing about wing chun's centerline:

Sifu Mark Rasmus
May 23, 2019


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KbTmcSeZlw
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby wayne hansen on Wed May 04, 2022 10:58 pm

I got that wrong
I thought you meant the whole centreline theory is wrong
It is more than just where you line up your hands
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 4421
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby Bao on Thu May 05, 2022 12:20 am

marvin8 wrote:You may have misunderstood him. The OP video is saying not to line up your guard on the centerline, because punches come from different angles. Rasmus says the same thing about wing chun's centerline:


No. I understood what he said. He just doesn’t understand the centerline. His understanding is not only rudimentary, but he gets it wrong. As Wayne said: "It is more than just where you line up your hands." And sorry to say, Rasmus has some good skills, but I prefer to just watch what he is doing and try to listen to what he says as little as possible. I couldn't care less if he agrees with the OP or not.

The importance of centerline in Chinese arts has very little to do with guarding it in the way that is said in the vid. In general, in all types of arts of body movement, you need a center to organize your movements. You need to organize your body, as well as each individual body parts, into its own centers and arrange movement using those points. Any type of professional dancer would understand exactly what I mean. They need to organize their movement to move smoothly and be able to change smoothly through all of the choreography.

In my personal view, in all of CMA, the centerline has at least 3 very important types of use. You use the centerline to:

1. have a central space as starting point and returning point for your movements. Imagine "Guarding the centerline" as like playing tennis, badminton or squash. You always need to go back to the center of the court, whenever you have returned a ball. If you stay too far away from the middle of the field or is forced to stay in the corner, you have no chance to catch up with a ball smashed to the other side of the fields. So in defense, the centerline is the neutral place from where you can always reach through the four gates (and four corners) of the body with ease.

2. align you body in such way so you will have better control over your own movement. When you establish your centerline, through the whole body, you can move easily in all of the four directions.

3. align with your attack so you have whole body support through the alignment of the body. What irritated me the most, not only from a Chinese martial arts perspective, but from all martial arts perspective, was when he pointed on his shoulder tips and said that you punch from the shoulder. It's just ridiculous. No good puncher, regardless art, including western boxing, just use their shoulders to punch with.

In the Chinese arts, you really align the punch with the centerline. You use the whole center of the body to punch with. And the power should, preferably, come from the back through the spine. If you support the impact of a punch using the centerline of the body, the punch will be strong as it has whole body support.

And BTW, in Chinese martial arts, the arm starts from where the scapula connects with the spine, not at the shoulder.
Last edited by Bao on Thu May 05, 2022 12:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8335
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby marvin8 on Thu May 05, 2022 5:09 am

Bao wrote:
marvin8 wrote:You may have misunderstood him. The OP video is saying not to line up your guard on the centerline, because punches come from different angles. Rasmus says the same thing about wing chun's centerline:


No. I understood what he said. He just doesn’t understand the centerline. His understanding is not only rudimentary, but he gets it wrong. As Wayne said: "It is more than just where you line up your hands."

His understanding is that most wing chun styles stack their guard on the centerline. I agree that the title of the video can be misleading.

Bao wrote:And sorry to say, Rasmus has some good skills, but I prefer to just watch what he is doing and try to listen to what he says as little as possible. I couldn't care less if he agrees with the OP or not.

Rasmus' video was more to the point and clear. He says and demos that lining up your guard on the centerline is a flaw in wing chun's centerline theory.

Bao wrote:The importance of centerline in Chinese arts has very little to do with guarding it in the way that is said in the vid....

However, the OP and Rasmus videos are about the wing chun guard. So, you are arguing a straw man here. Not all CMAs stack their guard on the centerline.

“The elbow of the lead arm should not be turned and pointing outwards but rather rotated inwards with a tip of the elbow pointing directly downwards and be vertically aligned over the lead leg's knee … The wrist of the rear or lower hand are held tightly on the area about three finger widths below the navel this area is commonly called the lower Dan Tien.”

Image
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby Giles on Thu May 05, 2022 5:21 am

Seems to me that some terms are getting a little blurred together here. There's the "centreline" in the sense of spatial orientation towards an opponent. That's often referenced in wing chun, and here in the video, although not by always by everyone as the be-all-and-end-all of wing chun. Then there's the concept of "central axis", or "heaven-earth line" or "central plumbline" in the body, through and around which the whole body is (or at least can be) organized. This is more like the central line/axis in a spinning top, without which it won't stand up. That's also a key component, or indeed the foundation, for zhong ding in tai chi chuan. No coincidence that the first of Yang Chen Fu's 10 principles is about raising the top of the head (and hence to create a clear and lively central axis). In this case the vertical axis/line is primarily about your relationship with gravity, not with the opponent. Although of course it then also radically influences your relationship with the opponent, but not in the same spatial way as discussed in the video.

So to my mind, the "centreline" in the first posted video and the "central axis" I describe here are not really the same thing.
Last edited by Giles on Thu May 05, 2022 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1080
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby Quigga on Thu May 05, 2022 5:24 am

Those fingers look tasty for biting, grabbing, breaking. I prefer the stance Steven Seagal uses, keeping hands close to his body, one hand over the other

Wonder how White Crane treats center line and guarding. They seem to be rather open in their movements
Enjoying the illusion is true freedom
Quigga
Wuji
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:08 pm

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby Bao on Thu May 05, 2022 6:52 am

marvin8 wrote:His understanding is that most wing chun styles stack their guard on the centerline. I agree that the title of the video can be misleading.

Bao wrote:And sorry to say, Rasmus has some good skills, but I prefer to just watch what he is doing and try to listen to what he says as little as possible. I couldn't care less if he agrees with the OP or not.


Rasmus' video was more to the point and clear. He says and demos that lining up your guard on the centerline is a flaw in wing chun's centerline theory.


I listened to Rasmus, sure, he had some good points.

The title of the OP vid is not misleading. That guy says clearly in his video that the centerline theory is fake and made up. He tries to argue against having a centreline theory and he misunderstands it.

Rasmus says that many people misunderstand and he tries to show how to do it correctly. The OP vid guy has no answer and does not argument about what it should be. He just say that centerline theory in WC is wrong.

So I say that he doesn't understand it. WC IS a style of chinese martial arts. Centerline theory IS NOT something specific to WC. it just shares something VERY COMMON and basic in Chinese martial art. Most people don't understand CMA, period. Most people suck. That doesn't mean that the theories are fake. It just means that THIS GUY in the OP has no clue about the real theory and the real origin of it.

Here, take a look at what is written on Sam Kwok's homepage:

http://www.kwokwingchun.com/training-ti ... enterline/

What is the Centreline?
Simply, it is an imaginary line that runs vertically in the center of the practitioner.
...
Centerline Theory
Wing Chun base's its attacks and defence around the centerline in order to maintain Wing Chun principles like economy of motion.
...


So this agrees with what Marcus said in the beginning that the centerline is something running vertically INSIDE of the practitioner.

"Economy of movement" is also something I described above in my 3 points.

It's just basic TCM theory, nothing in WC's centerline theories are WC specific and they are not imaginary. You just need to understand what they mean and how to practically use it.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8335
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby marvin8 on Thu May 05, 2022 7:21 am

Bao wrote:It just means that THIS GUY in the OP has no clue about the real theory and the real origin of it.

Let's say we agree that the OP guy doesn't have a clue about CMA.

In your opinion, which guard is better stack the guard on the centerline or Byron's Xingyi guard, Ramsus, etc?
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2635
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby Bhassler on Thu May 05, 2022 10:00 am

The whole concept of a guard largely relates to dueling (i.e. sport fighting or civilian sword disputes). If an art has more of a military/militia or self defence leaning, then the idea of a guard and guard positions is largely moot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I36exR ... katabunkai
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3405
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby origami_itto on Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am

Bhassler wrote:The whole concept of a guard largely relates to dueling (i.e. sport fighting or civilian sword disputes). If an art has more of a military/militia or self defence leaning, then the idea of a guard and guard positions is largely moot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I36exR ... katabunkai


Unreservedly and whole heartedly agree. It is not applicable unless you get caught up in that trap and format.
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
"What is essential is invisible to the eye"
Have Peng, Will Travel.
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 2931
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up

Postby Bao on Thu May 05, 2022 12:25 pm

marvin8 wrote:In your opinion, which guard is better stack the guard on the centerline or Byron's Xingyi guard, Ramsus, etc?


I don't believe in any perfect guard, or that it absolutely should be this or that. Instead I believe that the guard should be adjusted to opponent and other circumstances. But comparing those guys, I agree with Rasmus. I I speak for myself, I usually just hold a simple boxing, or general sparring guard, with my hands about chin height, or just below my chin. I keep them apart, but inside the shoulder area, and I like to keep them pretty square and close to my body. (Stretching the hands/fists far out will just give a good opponent a "handle" to work with.) So it's just a very basic and simple guard.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8335
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north


Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests