Power of Chi - Rob

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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby Doc Stier on Tue May 17, 2022 8:37 pm

origami_itto wrote:
Trip wrote:
Formosa Neijia wrote:Using an AI to impersonate a celebrity's voice on a film with this apparent production value is almost as stupid as thinking someone with...Mizner's business acumen would do it

I mean say what you like about his teaching, the market says it's highly valued. Instead of focusing on what he's doing wrong I think folks might want to look at what he's doing right and learn something.

Agreed. While opinions regarding Mizner's personal skill level and the content of his videos varies widely, his business acumen and marketing savy is clearly top notch.

Whether you love it or loathe it, even the haters can't deny that he has been very successful, despite considerable online competition. A very interesting phenomenon in so many different ways.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby wayne hansen on Wed May 18, 2022 2:43 am

The first mass marketer in Australia who used pyramid selling to sell tai chi
One of my teachers praised him
So good he knows nothing and makes a fortune
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby origami_itto on Wed May 18, 2022 3:09 am

Well you can go back as far as Plato's Republic and observe a discussion of the difference between the art of doing something and the art of making money at it.

If he can use the techniques to widely dissemenate bad Taijiquan, why can't you do something similar to spread GOOD Taijiquan?

Because he allegedly uses tricks? Is Taijiquan not good enough on its own?

I'd say beyond the marketing and flash, his actual instruction is top notch. He really breaks each piece down into manageable and understandable chunks. It's never too much information, never too little. All in all the presentation of his course material is very well polished and thought out.

You may not agree with the content itself, but a student leaves a session having learned something and that's why they keep coming back.

I've learned from a few teachers and the clarity of his instruction is very impressive.

100% of the BS people react to online is the commercials, the get you in the door sizzle and flash for noobs. The actual content is jibengong and drills and eating bitter.

And like I said I'm pretty sure I've gotten all I can get out of his online program and I don't see myself travelling to study with any of the US instructors so I don't really care much one way or the other about him or his teaching or his students.

But with all the muddled and unclear instruction out there, it's worth it to take note of one who speaks with clarity.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby RobP3 on Wed May 18, 2022 4:43 am

Thanks for the comments, guys. If a teacher is deceiving you in order to get you through the door, what does that say about the rest of his/her stuff?
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed May 18, 2022 5:30 am

Doc Stier wrote:When all is said and done, online marketing and promotion is an equal opportunity business. Anyone who chooses to produce interesting and informative YouTube videos, e-books, online instruction courses, etc, coupled with live seminars and workshops, can potentially create the same level of fame and fortune as Adam Mizner or a host of others have.

Thus, imo, the best way to expose or discredit those that you, whoever you are, may dislike or disapprove of is simply to create your own alternative offering for potential buyers to compare with what's already available online.

I look forward to seeing what you create. Good luck, and may The Force be with you. :)


Ah, the old bootstrap theory. It makes about as much sense used in this way as it does when people argue that everyone has an equal shot at becoming a millionaire. Which is to say: it doesn't track.

While I can appreciate the counter critiques of cult leaders (not a rare thing in IMA, and I don't really mean it in a completely derogatory way here), this particular argument falls flat in my estimation.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby origami_itto on Wed May 18, 2022 5:53 am

RobP3 wrote:Thanks for the comments, guys. If a teacher is deceiving you in order to get you through the door, what does that say about the rest of his/her stuff?


Who is to say it's deceit? Maybe it's his honest understanding?

At the end of the day he's got everybody in the Taijiquan world talking about him and he's making money hand over fist. The finer points of how he explains it is immaterial.

Am I to believe that allegedly more legitimate instruction cannot be structured, marketed, and delivered as successfully?

What I'm saying here is that any of us could replicate his success and spread our own understanding of whatever art we're pushing.

Like, for example, with this film, instead of just going around trying to prove how smart and skilled you are by tearing it down and further entrenching the battle lines, why not embrace it as a way to inspire more interest.

I mean it may have no more resemblance to legitimate Taijiquan than 50 Shades of Grey has to safe, sane, and consensual BDSM, but it's got people looking.

And you can directly oppose it, put your energy into convicing people it's wrong and that they're stupid for being conned, or maybe you can be like, "hey, yes, Mr potential new student. Taijiquan is an amazing and powerful art and studying it will definitely make your life better. This material looks good but it's really better to have in person instruction. My classes are at Pompous Ass Studios downtown every night at 7 come on down and I'll show you a thing or two"

It gets so tiring ask the kvetching and whining about internal and external and who's training sucks because it isn't like mine, Jesus people is that the reward?

You can punch the waves or surf them, your choice, just saying one of those strategies seems a little more familiar than the other.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby RobP3 on Wed May 18, 2022 6:14 am

origami_itto wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Thanks for the comments, guys. If a teacher is deceiving you in order to get you through the door, what does that say about the rest of his/her stuff?


Who is to say it's deceit? Maybe it's his honest understanding?

At the end of the day he's got everybody in the Taijiquan world talking about him and he's making money hand over fist. The finer points of how he explains it is immaterial.

Am I to believe that allegedly more legitimate instruction cannot be structured, marketed, and delivered as successfully?

What I'm saying here is that any of us could replicate his success and spread our own understanding of whatever art we're pushing.

Like, for example, with this film, instead of just going around trying to prove how smart and skilled you are by tearing it down and further entrenching the battle lines, why not embrace it as a way to inspire more interest.

I mean it may have no more resemblance to legitimate Taijiquan than 50 Shades of Grey has to safe, sane, and consensual BDSM, but it's got people looking.

And you can directly oppose it, put your energy into convicing people it's wrong and that they're stupid for being conned, or maybe you can be like, "hey, yes, Mr potential new student. Taijiquan is an amazing and powerful art and studying it will definitely make your life better. This material looks good but it's really better to have in person instruction. My classes are at Pompous Ass Studios downtown every night at 7 come on down and I'll show you a thing or two"

It gets so tiring ask the kvetching and whining about internal and external and who's training sucks because it isn't like mine, Jesus people is that the reward?

You can punch the waves or surf them, your choice, just saying one of those strategies seems a little more familiar than the other.


Yes, it is possible to make money in all sorts of ways, some scrupulous, some not. That's between each person and their conscience.

I'm not trying to prove how smart or skilled I am at all, simply showing how some "chi power" parlour tricks work. That's not what I would use to promote my "skills" personally.
You are saying I should embrace cheap tricks? No thanks.

So if there's a hustler fleecing people with a "find the lady" card trick or something, I guess we can admire his skill handling cards, does that mean we wouldn't warn people
about laying down their coin?

His training is like mine, that's the point. I started Yang family TC 40 years ago. And this is the first video I ever put on this channel responding to what someone else does. All my other content is instructional. You seem a bit upset about this, I don't know why. Maybe put your own clip up or something? It's a free world. In the meantime, I'll express my opinions however I see fit, thanks.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby Doc Stier on Wed May 18, 2022 6:37 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:When all is said and done, online marketing and promotion is an equal opportunity business. Anyone who chooses to produce interesting and informative YouTube videos, e-books, online instruction courses, etc, coupled with live seminars and workshops, can potentially create the same level of fame and fortune as Adam Mizner or a host of others have.

Thus, imo, the best way to expose or discredit those that you, whoever you are, may dislike or disapprove of is simply to create your own alternative offering for potential buyers to compare with what's already available online.

I look forward to seeing what you create. Good luck, and may The Force be with you. :)


Ah, the old bootstrap theory. It makes about as much sense used in this way as it does when people argue that everyone has an equal shot at becoming a millionaire. Which is to say: it doesn't track.

While I can appreciate the counter critiques of cult leaders (not a rare thing in IMA, and I don't really mean it in a completely derogatory way here), this particular argument falls flat in my estimation.

With all due respect for your personal opinion, Ian, I feel confident that I could easily replicate a similar business model and internet marketing strategy, if I chose to produce IMA promotional videos, offer an online instruction course for a reasonable monthly fee, write an interesting e-book or two, and then leverage those things to set up group seminars and workshops throughout my country and around the world.

It would definitely require a considerable investment of personal time, talent, and treasury to launch such a venture, but it would undoubtedly be quite lucrative in the long run. And typically, as one becomes more famous over time, more and more people will pay to play in order to check it all out, resulting in ever greater MCI... Money Coming In.

I see no reason why anyone with something marketable to offer couldn't do that, other than they simply don't believe that they could. However, aside from self-imposed impediments, it would be just like achieving any other personal goal, i.e. when you can visualize it and believe it, you can achieve it. As always, of course, ymmv.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby origami_itto on Wed May 18, 2022 7:02 am

RobP3 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Thanks for the comments, guys. If a teacher is deceiving you in order to get you through the door, what does that say about the rest of his/her stuff?


Who is to say it's deceit? Maybe it's his honest understanding?

At the end of the day he's got everybody in the Taijiquan world talking about him and he's making money hand over fist. The finer points of how he explains it is immaterial.

Am I to believe that allegedly more legitimate instruction cannot be structured, marketed, and delivered as successfully?

What I'm saying here is that any of us could replicate his success and spread our own understanding of whatever art we're pushing.

Like, for example, with this film, instead of just going around trying to prove how smart and skilled you are by tearing it down and further entrenching the battle lines, why not embrace it as a way to inspire more interest.

I mean it may have no more resemblance to legitimate Taijiquan than 50 Shades of Grey has to safe, sane, and consensual BDSM, but it's got people looking.

And you can directly oppose it, put your energy into convicing people it's wrong and that they're stupid for being conned, or maybe you can be like, "hey, yes, Mr potential new student. Taijiquan is an amazing and powerful art and studying it will definitely make your life better. This material looks good but it's really better to have in person instruction. My classes are at Pompous Ass Studios downtown every night at 7 come on down and I'll show you a thing or two"

It gets so tiring ask the kvetching and whining about internal and external and who's training sucks because it isn't like mine, Jesus people is that the reward?

You can punch the waves or surf them, your choice, just saying one of those strategies seems a little more familiar than the other.


Yes, it is possible to make money in all sorts of ways, some scrupulous, some not. That's between each person and their conscience.

I'm not trying to prove how smart or skilled I am at all, simply showing how some "chi power" parlour tricks work. That's not what I would use to promote my "skills" personally.
You are saying I should embrace cheap tricks? No thanks.

So if there's a hustler fleecing people with a "find the lady" card trick or something, I guess we can admire his skill handling cards, does that mean we wouldn't warn people
about laying down their coin?

His training is like mine, that's the point. I started Yang family TC 40 years ago. And this is the first video I ever put on this channel responding to what someone else does. All my other content is instructional. You seem a bit upset about this, I don't know why. Maybe put your own clip up or something? It's a free world. In the meantime, I'll express my opinions however I see fit, thanks.


I'm not upset, I'm not mad at all man, that is not my bag, baby. Even Formosa is more amusing than anything.

I'm not even talking about you in particular, just the general vibe around Mizner and this film. I liked your video and I agree, it's all just biology. Hell I bought at least one of your books.

And again, I DON'T care about his success or failure or the reputation of his school, I've gotten what i can get from him, but I wish him the best.

What I'm saying is that spending time and effort debunking his stuff is great for us experienced enthusiasts who enjoy the nuance, and maybe that's all you're interested in reaching. You're reacting to the attention to the film by trying to work against it, so anybody new watching your video is being forced to make a choice which world view they want to proceed with before they go any further. You're basically forcing a decision on something they don't have enough information about by giving them even more information that they don't necessarily understand. If they have seen something and have been drawn to find out more there is a bit of emotional investment in the ideas already and attacking them can feel to a person, particularly a new person, like an attack on them and their intelligence and judgment.

What I'm saying is let's Bobby Fischer this shit. What is the move to checkmate? How is checkmate defined?

If we're making educational videos spreading the truth about quality martial arts, is it to make people feel stupid? Is it to discourage new seekers from getting invested and carrying on the next generation of the art? How are we jointly and separately best served and serving as would-be stewards of these arts?

"Oh, you saw the power of Chi with Morgan Freeman? Yeah, that's pretty cool. I've been studying this stuff for 30 years, come on down to the class and I'll show you something"

Then if you can't blow their minds in person with a demonstration of your skills and convince them you've got something worth studying, what are you even offering?

Because there are a lot of people riding the wave of the publicity to greater enrollment, just suggesting a strategy for maybe being one of them. Conceal the faults of others and just make your own options more compelling without resorting to negativity.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby cloudz on Wed May 18, 2022 7:32 am

I think the question is now.. is he misleading and or misselling something here. Is what he's doing ethical ?

Most of us here accept these 'tricks', skill full or not as a result of body mechanics/bio mechanics.
Now sure "qi" can be argued to be included in that but training for it is NOT required to duplicate the demonstrations.

simply calling it 'chi power' and showing those things is in of itself misleading therefore. People have talked about the 'good' spin off this - more interest. But really - probably long term this is damaging to TCC and the like. For me the goal should be to attract good/ serious martial artist/ people looking for that. Not people looking for - well, whatever that amounts to. Think about what he's actually selling people on with that kind of marketing.

It puts it all into disrepute frankly.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 18, 2022 7:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby D_Glenn on Wed May 18, 2022 7:35 am

Before he came around, there already was a cult of Yang Style. Peace loving hippies, bored housewives, grandma’s, etc

People who abhor violence. The cult was already there, but they were all spread out, and they just didn’t have a leader. Now they do.

Maybe this whole thing will separate the wheat from the chaff, and the fighters that are there might actually go onto seek out others.

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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby windwalker on Wed May 18, 2022 7:43 am

RobP3 wrote:Yes, it is possible to make money in all sorts of ways, some scrupulous, some not. That's between each person and their conscience.

I'm not trying to prove how smart or skilled I am at all, simply showing how some "chi power" parlour tricks work.

.


The assumption being that what is shown by him, was done in the same way as demoed by you...
was it ?

would those there, feel the same things,,,,not possible to know...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJKg3QkUngE


http://www.yichuankungfu.com/cheuk-fung/empty-force/

Many teachers do the same type of demos showing the same things....
are they all "tricks" or just part of a way to demo concepts that their methods are said to develop.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 18, 2022 8:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby cloudz on Wed May 18, 2022 7:48 am

D_Glenn wrote:Before he came around, there already was a cult of Yang Style. Peace loving hippies, bored housewives, grandma’s, etc

People who abhor violence. The cult was already there, but they were all spread out, and they just didn’t have a leader. Now they do.

Maybe this whole thing will separate the wheat from the chaff, and the fighters that are there might actually go onto seek out others.

.


Devlin, hope you're well

I think at this point it's almost like a reputation thing. Most of us here are insiders and know the lay of the land - more or less. That yes there are still good Yang style and CMC and all the rest, but sure, the 'hippie crowd' let's say are maybe more dominant in there than Chen style or perhaps other ICMA.

But what your average outsider sees martial artist or not is mostly this, and I take Formosa'a point that this trend that was already there is more than likely to be accelerated.

Things were already problematic, though maybe it has been already a lost cause. Good classes are already hard to come by. Films like this certainly won't help anyway.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 18, 2022 7:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby cloudz on Wed May 18, 2022 8:00 am

windwalker wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Yes, it is possible to make money in all sorts of ways, some scrupulous, some not. That's between each person and their conscience.

I'm not trying to prove how smart or skilled I am at all, simply showing how some "chi power" parlour tricks work.

.


The assumption being that what is shown by him, is the same as what was demoed by you...
Is it ?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJKg3QkUngE

Many teachers do the same type of demos showing the same things....
are they all "tricks" or just part of a way to demo concepts that their methods are said to develop.


If the methods have martial arts use fullness - then that is what should be demonstrated.
Mizner teaches useful push hands stuff - and it can be drilled and or demonstrated. There is a bona fide tai chi curriculum in there that he uses to teach people..
The techniques can be used in pushing hands competition even.

I can live with that kind of thing.

This is something else though. Using his fingers to push a guy - and clearly the people chosen for this film are chosen intentionally to signal a certain message.

It's just reduces things to a cheap and shoddy circus act. and for what, no more than commercial success.
Personally i find that a shame and shameful. Not for me and it doesn't represent my sort of standards for conduct - ethics.
That matters too.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby cloudz on Wed May 18, 2022 8:07 am

That clip you posted windy - it's neither here nor there. some demonstrations cross over theatrics with martial skills and abilities, techniques..
I see a little of both in that one. It isn't presented as a film titled 'the power of chi'.

The context discussed is a different one however - it's not really relevant to post other demonstrations such as that in an attempt to justify a whole different clip and how IT is presented.

presentation is a big deal.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 18, 2022 8:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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