"mechanical trick"

[everything]

here is someone who seems to have a "mechanical trick" (he says to "roll under") approach:


and a (compliant) way to practice it for "rebounding"


maybe this is "structure" or "fascia" or "bracing" or "eccentric" or "non red muscles" or something like that to some people. as a "feeder", he is essentially throwing himself out. it's not very clear to me why they are doing this. he seems to want the "thrower" to feel like a trampoline. he says something about "train the fascia" and getting to "energetic part" later...

[Bob]

Structure and alignment seem to be key regardless of the belief in Qi - refined bajiquan reflects these things too. When the warlord Zhang Xiang Wu told the young 20 something Liu Yun Qiao to learn his Yang style taiji and to read all of the classics associated with taijiquan the young Liu with the youth arrogance of being indestructible asked, "why?" The warlord's response, "It will make your bajiquan much better!"

I noted that the clips are labeled as exercises - I am not a fan of "Wudang" just as I feel the same about "Shaolin" but I would hope one shouldn't judge any of this harshly - there might be a few things worth thinking about in his clips - don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[everything]

don't want to judge anyone too harshly. everyone is at his or her own level of understanding at that moment.

but they say yi->qi->jin, not yi->sinews->qi. it seems prudent to pay attention to what people like Sun said. when you start to scratch the surface, it starts to seem to make sense ...

[Bao]

Have watched a few of his clips before. He sounds like Mark Rasmus but much more like a marketing or sales manager. I am not a fan really. Especially not his explanations. Sometimes complicating simple things is just unnecessary, it brings no value and do more to confuse than to reveal.


And I really, really hate the second clip. I've seen a few similar vids, from Rasmus, Meraz and others. It's always so dumb. Conditioning yourself to hop.

Instead you should train to always keep your root and your central equilibrium, no matter what. Keeping your balance and structural integrity when people try to push you around, drag you or throw you is a delicate thing. You need to learn how to feel the small changes within your own body. Training this way will only teach you to lose it all at an instant. Completely worthless and counter-productive practice.

[origami_itto]

don't want to judge anyone too harshly. everyone is at his or her own level of understanding at that moment.

but they say yi->qi->jin, not yi->sinews->qi. it seems prudent to pay attention to what people like Sun said. when you start to scratch the surface, it starts to seem to make sense ...

So what do you think that means? Invisible force that moves matter outside your body? What do EACH of those terms mean? Can you produce any effect or phenomenon which matches this pattern?

How are you training this ability?

[everything]

don't want to judge anyone too harshly. everyone is at his or her own level of understanding at that moment.

but they say yi->qi->jin, not yi->sinews->qi. it seems prudent to pay attention to what people like Sun said. when you start to scratch the surface, it starts to seem to make sense ...

So what do you think that means? Invisible force that moves matter outside your body? What do EACH of those terms mean? Can you produce any effect or phenomenon which matches this pattern?

How are you training this ability?

I don't know how to have jin, so I can only do a slight amount of yi->qi. Training method is standing and form. It's not important (to me) to know what "qi" means, but I'd would say: do we feel "energy"? Or just "manifestations or effects of energy"? Is something happening? Or are we just able to pay more attention? The "hydraulic feeling" grows and is more subject to yi. This seems like very beginner-ish to me, but it improves very, very slowly. If it gets somewhere, I will let you know. But, to make another bad analogy, so many kids practice music in or out of school. Almost all of them are very, very bad at it. You may gain some proficiency and think you're good, then only late realize you're bad. I hope I'm not one of those kids hitting the keys and ... I'm just not a musician when all is said and done. but just because you can't be Mozart doesn't mean you give it up.

[origami_itto]

Well you know I suck, that's why I practice.

But what I'm saying is that this is an art based on moving the body. Even at the advanced levels of apparent stillness, there is movement within the body.
Tendons connect muscle to bone and ligaments connect bone to bone. All movement necessarily involves them.
One way of understanding Jin is highly refined movement, though that movement may be internal and in some cases like ting jin you're feeling movement not causing it

but yeah, focus on the movement don't worry about that magic hooey

[everything]

it's not that i've reached the pinnacle of refined movement. for certain movements, like kicking or sometimes hitting a ball, I can do them in a more refined way at times (and many times not at all). that's good stuff, but that's not the "jin" I'm interested in at the moment. it's hard to explain because the "effect" and "phenomena" are only in my body. none of those are "magic", yet i'm not using them to move myself let alone "push" another body as if by "magic". but I think there are various benefits. the qigong aspect likely has many benefits beyond "moving with li". the qigong/meditation aspect as well. better brain waves. better ability to access flow state. the mind/body seems to associate or link these all together. so even if you want to do yi->qi->li, and I can't ever figure out yi->qi>jin, nothing's really lost, and plenty is still gained.

It's understandable that people are skeptical, of course. if someone only sees a "magic trick" or even if you're lucky enough to feel it, it can certainly seem unbelievable. the trick seems and may permanently be inaccessible. but it seems helpful just working toward it.

[origami_itto]

Okay so what is jin, in your own understanding and words?

[Bao]

What is Jin? Hmm... Just to get the discussion going:

From: Interview Shiming
https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/t ... /shi-ming/

When you teach taiji, you always talk about taiji jin as the critical element in hand-pushing. What do you mean by taiji jin?

Though we say jin, internal force, it’s better to talk about a field. We can also say yinian li, the power of the mind, which means the power derived from the mind harmonizing with the body. This is also taiji jin.

Another way of talking about it is the body is soft and the thought is hard. Thought must be put outside the body. Then softness and hardness mutually correspond. This is taiji jin. Jin is not something you have after so many years of practice, like a commodity you can show. People talk about qi like this. That’s not it.

Putting the mind in the dantian is one means of cultivating this jin. With the mind in the dantian, the qi radiates outward, like waves on a pond. This produces power. If you catch a cold, you put your mind in the dantian and it gets real hot, and qi courses through the body. Soon the cold’s gone. This is really beautiful. Most people have heard of the principle yishou dantian, put your mind in your dantian. Few have heard of qisan dantian, radiate qi from the dantian.

So only through qisan dantian can the qi move throughout the body and the lesser and greater heavenly circulations be accomplished.

[origami_itto]

Oh well that clears it up then doesn't it.

[windwalker]

Oh well that clears it up then doesn't it.

haha

Yes it doesn't

sharing some views, thoughts...only as in a conversation...

Will use some translations, only to support my own thoughts not to speak for me...

勁 (Jin) ­ Refined force. Normally, any force gained by active training, e.g. even boxing may consider as Jin. However, internal Jin are trained differently and do not involve the active engaging of muscles. In the highest form in internal arts, Jin is developed through the movement of Yi and Qi.

Don't necessarily agree with this translation...

Thought it would be a good intro to some thoughts

Don't want my thoughts to be just on the translation only using it as a starting point.

Jin is a description of force, as in sinking force , shocking force, wave force, empty force ect...

none of it, is how or what....It's not something that one gets, only a description of what one has developed

This is how we talk about it, among those I work with all native speakers, some not able to speak english...
In China, it was also how it was mentioned and used....

Is it useful, only in so much as its a label when talking about different types of force...

[Bao]

Is it useful, only in so much as its a label when talking about different types of force...

Agreed that the term "jin" is mostly useful as a label on different types of "force". Or maybe as describing different "qualities" of force or strength.

IMO, the best explanation of "general jin", or as here, specifically general "taiji jin", I would say that it is the natural result of Taijiquan practice and using Taijiquan principles. How well you understand Taijiquan principles (through your body and mind) and how well and how long you have practiced Taijquan, will determine the quality and "pureness" of your Taiji jin. If you understand how to use and express a taiji shenfa it will automatically express jin.

So understanding what jin is intellectually is pointless. Practice right and practice until you get it right, and then you will understand jin.

[robert]

Wang Haijun writes in The Five Most Important Taijiquan Skills for Beginners

In the first part of this article, published in the Summer 2010 edition, I discussed the first of the five most important taijiquan skills for beginners, fang song. In this article I discuss what I consider to be the second and third most important skills for beginners, peng jin and ding jin.

(From the first article -
When asked what I consider the five most important skills for a beginner student in taijiquan, I listed them as:

1. Fang Song – Loosen the body by relaxing the joints

2. Peng Jin – an outward supportive strength, the basic skill of taiji

3. Ding Jin – upright and straight

4. Chen - rooted

5. Chan Si Jin – Reeling Silk Skill)

It is worth repeating that these are difficult ideas to formulate in words. They are difficult to gain an understanding of. It is difficult to grasp the skill of them. They must be shown. The student must be led to them. They are not skills that lead themselves to be grasped intuitively. This is why most people do not get a good basic grounding in them. Many teachers do not have these skill, so naturally it is not possible for their students to gain them. Even today, after more than 20 years of high level taijiquan practitioners being available as visiting teachers, still the level of these skills is not as high as it might be given the dedication, perseverance and effort of many players here in the UK.

2. Peng Jin - – an outward supportive strength: the basic skill of taijiquan

Peng Jin (sometimes simply Peng) is the core skill of taijiquan. All other taijiquan skills are based around the skill. It comes from loosening the body (fang song) and stretching. In essence, ‘stretching but not straightening’ the joints. Peng is not a natural or instinctive skill. It comes from a long period of correct practice. Without a good understanding of peng and then considerable training to transform this understanding into this skill in every part of the body, it will not arise. Peng will not be gained by accident. It is systematically trained into the body over time.

When I was exploring writing this piece I considered making peng jin the first most important skill of taijiquan. However, while peng should be considered the most important skill, it is dependent on loosening the body (fang song.) It is an effective argument that Taijiquan is peng jin chuan because without peng there is no taijiquan. It is taijiquan’s essential skill. Peng is always used when moving, neutralizing, striking, coiling etc,. Through peng all other taijiquan skills are utilized.

This accords with what is written in Chen Changxin's 10 Essentials regarding three harmonies -

心與意合，氣與力合，筋與骨合，內三合也。

xin (heart/mind) harmonizes with yi (intention), qi harmonizes with li (power/strength), and jin (muscle/tendon) harmonizes with gu (bone), these are the three internal harmonies.

[Bob]

Structure and alignment seem to be key regardless of the belief in Qi - refined bajiquan reflects these things too. When the warlord Zhang Xiang Wu told the young 20 something Liu Yun Qiao to learn his Yang style taiji and to read all of the classics associated with taijiquan the young Liu with the youth arrogance of being indestructible asked, "why?" The warlord's response, "It will make your bajiquan much better!"

I noted that the clips are labeled as exercises - I am not a fan of "Wudang" just as I feel the same about "Shaolin" but I would hope one shouldn't judge any of this harshly - there might be a few things worth thinking about in his clips - don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

It's the development of this type of structure and jin, seen out of the context of the form or even application seems "obscure" or a "mechanical trick".

In the Adam Hsu clip below just looking at this kind of reminds me what might be in the clip presented - not the same jin or structure in the clip that was tagged in the clip but showing similar breakdown -

I don't consider what Adam Hsu presents as a "mechanical trick" but can see how easily it might be interpreted to be one.

I can also map the baji training in the clip to da qiang training and also note that this kind of movement also requires taiji like qualities to reach a higher quality of deliverance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DauqznL_T_I



As far a Qi goes, you can interpret Adam's clip along yin - yang principles (just one way of looking at it) and we can trace out Qi concepts from the Yin - Yang relationships which ultimately take root out of the Yi Jing - which was the conceptual way early Chinese viewed and lived through their world - I posted some the references in other postings but won't bore you with relisting them

If you don't this perspective for developing a strong marital arts prowess then that's what works for you and it's best stay pragmatic and do what works for you (plural - no specific)

For others this perspective may add a richness to the practice which may simply be an enjoyable way to deepen what you are learning - I also see the potential for obscurity but what can be said - It all depends on what your objectives are and it seems many of us get caught up in trying to establish whose objectives are legitimate and whose are not.