"mechanical trick"

[Quigga]

And here I was thinking you want to fly me in
I was getting excited for a second
How embarrassing

[windwalker]

must be the net,,,

The conversation was about how or if one uses demos to separate what we would call yin from yang
or as in the OP post title to show that what is done is not done using mechanical advantage...ie a trick

As to what kind of demo or how they would do it....

feeling lucky today,,,well do ya,


a little on training from one of my old teachers..

Other than that...the training is quite simple. You simply hit your phone book or your rice-filled bag with the palm of your hand, and wait, and breath, and sink your breath, and try to feel something other than your own effort coming through your hand. Then you stick your hand in your medicine and go home... and do it again tomorrow, for the next ten or fifteen years.
Mpstaples

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... acadc07094

Oddly enough my taiji teacher in Beijing said the same thing when some of the local students asked about how to get some skill

He said " come here every day and practice for 3 hrs in the morning and 3 hrs in the evenings for 20 yrs,,,
and then you might develop some skill "

meaning it takes awhile, but first one must make sure the theory used is correct for what they feel they want to do..

What takes awhile may not be what one thinks,,,,Most can already do it…

What takes a while is really understanding, accepting that one can…

Do it….

What was described by Mike, Burning palm…is considered an internal specialty, within an external system Tibetan White Crane…

Note all CMA is internal, just depends on the focus of how the internal is used.

[origami_itto]

And here I was thinking you want to fly me in
I was getting excited for a second
How embarrassing

Hey man I am down to make dreams a reality, let's talk turkey, turkey and see where we can meet.

[Quigga]

I haven't traveled in a long time so I'd be down for it

Just hoping not to disappoint

[cloudz]

Wang Haijun writes in The Five Most Important Taijiquan Skills for Beginners

In the first part of this article, published in the Summer 2010 edition, I discussed the first of the five most important taijiquan skills for beginners, fang song. In this article I discuss what I consider to be the second and third most important skills for beginners, peng jin and ding jin.

(From the first article -
When asked what I consider the five most important skills for a beginner student in taijiquan, I listed them as:

1. Fang Song – Loosen the body by relaxing the joints

2. Peng Jin – an outward supportive strength, the basic skill of taiji

3. Ding Jin – upright and straight

4. Chen - rooted

5. Chan Si Jin – Reeling Silk Skill)

It is worth repeating that these are difficult ideas to formulate in words. They are difficult to gain an understanding of. It is difficult to grasp the skill of them. They must be shown. The student must be led to them. They are not skills that lead themselves to be grasped intuitively. This is why most people do not get a good basic grounding in them. Many teachers do not have these skill, so naturally it is not possible for their students to gain them. Even today, after more than 20 years of high level taijiquan practitioners being available as visiting teachers, still the level of these skills is not as high as it might be given the dedication, perseverance and effort of many players here in the UK.

2. Peng Jin - – an outward supportive strength: the basic skill of taijiquan

Peng Jin (sometimes simply Peng) is the core skill of taijiquan. All other taijiquan skills are based around the skill. It comes from loosening the body (fang song) and stretching. In essence, ‘stretching but not straightening’ the joints. Peng is not a natural or instinctive skill. It comes from a long period of correct practice. Without a good understanding of peng and then considerable training to transform this understanding into this skill in every part of the body, it will not arise. Peng will not be gained by accident. It is systematically trained into the body over time.

When I was exploring writing this piece I considered making peng jin the first most important skill of taijiquan. However, while peng should be considered the most important skill, it is dependent on loosening the body (fang song.) It is an effective argument that Taijiquan is peng jin chuan because without peng there is no taijiquan. It is taijiquan’s essential skill. Peng is always used when moving, neutralizing, striking, coiling etc,. Through peng all other taijiquan skills are utilized.

This accords with what is written in Chen Changxin's 10 Essentials regarding three harmonies -

心與意合，氣與力合，筋與骨合，內三合也。

xin (heart/mind) harmonizes with yi (intention), qi harmonizes with li (power/strength), and jin (muscle/tendon) harmonizes with gu (bone), these are the three internal harmonies.

Hi Robert,

I recall having some good discussions with you Re. force (jin), finding you both knowledgable and thoughtful about it..
I'm getting more and more convinced that the description offered here for 'peng' should otherwise be reserved for intrinsic force ('neijin') as referenced in the classics.

How would you say or describe how we should understand this intrinsic force, I guess I would like someone to offer me a distinction against what this teacher writes about 'peng'. From there i think I may or may not be able to offer a basis for understanding this 'peng' as being 'neijin' (intrinsic force trained by taiji) and a corresponding way to understand peng slightly differently as part of 4 primary and complimentary expressions of jin in taiji - all containing of course the intrinsic force..

[robert]

I didn't quote the whole article, WHJ wrote more about peng jin in the article. This might clear it up.

https://www.nickgudge.ie/5.b.vii.-whj-articles-beginners-2.html

[cloudz]

ok.. two types of peng jin ?
That still leaves intrinsic force (neijin) - what is it, does it play any part in Chen style whatsoever ?

It isn't satisfying, in my opinion, to talk about two kinds of peng jin and ignore intrinsic force as if it has zero to do with anything.
Personally I think this supportive force is neijin - it's really as basic as unbendable arm on one level, then as 'basic' as keeping a certain expansion constant throughout, dimming it up or down even, perhaps. then when and where it is needed. Where there is no neijin there is emptiness. It's the water filling the hose.

I would describe it as a passive force that does the work of connecting and holding structure: Intrinsic (force). From the outside it is a springy defensive support..
If there is no better alternative to what it actually is.. then this is surely a better fit and makes more sense than to insist on two kinds of Peng..

Why did they bother to talk about it in the classics, it's like the very foundation, surely it is what arises and the basic quality the body takes on from the form requirements; like open close, rise sink etc.

It feels right to me and until I hear a better definition of neijin, I'm staying with it on a personal level.

[windwalker]

I didn't quote the whole article, WHJ wrote more about peng jin in the article. This might clear it up.

https://www.nickgudge.ie/5.b.vii.-whj-articles-beginners-2.html

Interesting article,,,,the teacher speaking from his perspective.

wouldn't agree with much of it....

From inside the body, when peng is present any pressure is transferred to the ground (rooted.)
.

Maybe it's a poor choice of words,,,

a ballon floating in air demonstrates "peng jin" does not depend on ground contact...

Do agree with the writings, on "jin" as not being easily translated into English....

[origami_itto]

a ballon floating in air demonstrates "peng jin" does not depend on ground contact...

It might, but it's functionally useless. Any force acting against the free floating balloon will just push it away. For the balloon to exert force against something else, it has to have something to provide that equal and opposite reaction. It must be anchored somehow or it will just push itself away.

And yes, even 4 oz of force is an amount of force.

[robert]

ok.. two types of peng jin ?
That still leaves intrinsic force (neijin) - what is it, does it play any part in Chen style whatsoever ?

It isn't satisfying, in my opinion, to talk about two kinds of peng jin and ignore intrinsic force as if it has zero to do with anything.

My understanding is that neijin is a generic term. It can be applied to any MA that uses it. Taiji, xinyi/xingyi, and bagua all use neijin. Peng jin is a term that is specific to taiji. I haven't seen old xinyi/xingyi manuals that write about peng jin. From the article -

Chen Fake taught that there are two types of peng jin. The first is the fundamental skill or strength of taijiquan. The second is one of the eight commonly recognized taijiquan jins, (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lieh, zhou & kao.)

Peng jin as the fundamental skill or strength of taijiquan is basically synonymous with neijin. Taiji talks about peng jin and xinyi/xingyi talk about six-sided support. It's convention, it's not something that I made up.

[windwalker]

a ballon floating in air demonstrates "peng jin" does not depend on ground contact...

It might, but it's functionally useless. Any force acting against the free floating balloon will just push it away. For the balloon to exert force against something else, it has to have something to provide that equal and opposite reaction. It must be anchored somehow or it will just push itself away.

And yes, even 4 oz of force is an amount of force.

good example of missing the point...no 4oz has nothing to do with the amount of force,,,

It's not about "force"

YMMV

For the balloon to exert force against something else, it has to have something to provide that equal and opposite reaction.

It must be anchored somehow or it will just push itself away.

ya might want to think about this,,,

[origami_itto]

a ballon floating in air demonstrates "peng jin" does not depend on ground contact...

It might, but it's functionally useless. Any force acting against the free floating balloon will just push it away. For the balloon to exert force against something else, it has to have something to provide that equal and opposite reaction. It must be anchored somehow or it will just push itself away.

And yes, even 4 oz of force is an amount of force.

good example of missing the point...no 4oz has nothing to do with the amount of force,,,

It's not about "force"

YMMV

Then what's it about, windy? I'm just telling you how physics works here in Florida.

For a body, an object, to move, a force must be exerted against it. The force is, by definition, what makes the movement happen.

So if you touch someone and they move, then a force was exerted. Either you exerted the force directly with your own body, or I guess theoretically you did something psychological or energetic that made them exert it themselves, or maybe you just channeled their force they tried to exert into you into the ground and back out again.

What other options have I missed and what are you suggesting is happening if not one of those things? Speak plainly, nothing to be afraid of.

The 4oz as explained by Cheng Man Ching was like a rope tied to a ring in a bull's nose.

For the balloon to exert force against something else, it has to have something to provide that equal and opposite reaction.

It must be anchored somehow or it will just push itself away.

ya might want to think about this,,,

Speak plainly, windy, please. Your coyness is beyond tiresome.

[windwalker]

It’s called Momentum, referencing the balloons.
Try it.
With Fully equally inflated balloons,
with one balloon half inflated,
with one balloon not inflated.


Let one drop, throw the other balloon at it so that it hits it.

See the results.



ZMC, his rope analogy was referring to mind.
Not to the amount of force, The amount of force has to do with awareness level triggers among other things

Although some might come to the conclusion based on where the rope is placed on the ox as he mentioned, it is about the force.

[windwalker]

So if you touch someone and they move, then a force was exerted. Either you exerted the force directly with your own body, or I guess theoretically you did something psychological or energetic that made them exert it themselves, or maybe you just channeled their force they tried to exert into you into the ground and back out again

By Your own statement.

It’s not about force.

Many speak of “yi” intent but don’t seem to
Understand the use or function

[origami_itto]

It’s called Momentum, referencing the balloons.
Try it.
With Fully equally inflated balloons,
with one balloon half inflated,
with one balloon not inflated.

Let one drop, throw the other balloon at it so that it hits it.

See the results.

Well momentum is simply force by another name.

Pick which is which without googling.

1. the quantity of motion of a moving body, measured as a product of its mass and velocity.
2. strength or energy as an attribute of physical action or movement.

Going further...

Force (F) is equal to the change in momentum (ΔP) over the change in time (Δt). And the change in momentum (ΔP) is also equal to the impulse (J). Impulse has the same units as momentum (kg*m/s or N*s).


If there is a change in momentum, i.e. if the speed at which an object is moving changes, then force is present. From stillness to movement, from movement to stillness, from slower to faster or faster to slower. Force is present.

So with your balloons, not that I think taijiquan is equivalent to throwing anything at anything else, but whatever we're simplifying for discussion.

With the balloons, an inflated balloon that isn't backed by anything will fly away from any touch. It cannot exert force back to affect a body that may come into contact with it. Inflated or not inflated is missing the point entirely.

Give me a lever long enough and place to stand and I can move the world, but I need a place to stand.

ZMC, his rope analogy was referring to mind.
Not to the amount of force, The amount of force has to do with awareness level triggers among other things

Although some might come to the conclusion based on where the rope is placed on the ox as he mentioned, it is about the force.

I know you've got magic yi powers that amount to mind control and putting others on a string, but the rest of us have to rely on plain old physics, so that's the only understanding I can speak from.