"mechanical trick"

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Re: "mechanical trick"

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:35 am

robert wrote:
origami_itto wrote:We're told that 4 oz can deflect 1000 lbs.

I mean, kind of, the measurements are a bit off, aren't they?

I like the post. Sorry to pick on something so trivial, but I was looking at the Taijiquan Treatise recently and discovered something I wasn't aware of. 四兩撥千斤 (four ounces can move a thousand catties) is an idiom. As a figure of speech, it means to achieve much with little effort. It probably isn't meant to be taken literally. FWIW.


;D

In my practice the meaning is quite literal, only as a starting point...

We use 3 levels...of contact, skin, hair, and air...

some thoughts, if it's a matter of "only" using less force relative to another force.

does this mean, 40 lbs of force one can use 4 lb of contact force ?

or maybe the point is not really about the weight of pressure felt.... :)

With other practices it may be different
based on the theories "they" use :)
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "mechanical trick"

Postby robert on Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:51 am

origami_itto wrote:There's no magic energy it's just good body control and sensitivity. It's all newton.

I agree. Here's a video of a couple people training jin - they're using their waists/dantians. Notice that around 1:20 the guy in the blue shirt uses his shoulder - that breaks the qi; that means the yi is broken. Neijin is a subtle and sophisticated use of the body. A person has to intend to be song. A person has to intend to use the waist/dantian. Movement is intentional. My two cents.

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: "mechanical trick"

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:04 pm

robert wrote:
origami_itto wrote:There's no magic energy it's just good body control and sensitivity. It's all newton.

I agree. Here's a video of a couple people training jin - they're using their waists/dantians. Notice that around 1:20 the guy in the blue shirt uses his shoulder - that breaks the qi; that means the yi is broken.

Neijin is a subtle and sophisticated use of the body. A person has to intend to be song. A person has to intend to use the waist/dantian. Movement is intentional. My two cents.



Then "anyone" should be able to do it quite easily ;D

Don't quite get the resistance to what is already explained and described.... :)

The many demos that people do showing it has nothing to do with the body,,,but does follow the theories used to explain it..

At the end of the day, if one can do it,,,does it matter "how". :-\

aside note:

there are levels with clear distinctions, by those with skill able to show the differences...

For those not, often what they do is not as clear...as they'er still working on practicing "it"
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "mechanical trick"

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:18 pm

Pretty basic stuff with a bit of acting to sell the point
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: "mechanical trick"

Postby origami_itto on Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:40 pm

Anyone can crack a bullwhip, it takes a bit of practice to flick a cigarette out of someone's mouth at 12 feet.

Qi may simply be a meta understanding of several aspects of body and movement.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
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Re: "mechanical trick"

Postby robert on Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:42 pm

windwalker wrote:Then "anyone" should be able to do it quite easily ;D

I don't know what you consider easy or hard. Many people consider math hard, from my experience it requires sufficient time. Here's an example of song kua.


I haven't met many people who are that song. Is that easy or hard? Using the dantian/yao to control the body requires one to retrain the body. Is that easy or hard? It wasn't hard for me, but it did take years of training. YCF wrote Learning taijiquan is easy, but to correct a wrong style is difficult.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: "mechanical trick"

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:57 pm

I haven't met many people who are that song. Is that easy or hard?


;D If One doesn’t practice it, it’s hard.

You do understand that being song has nothing to do with range of body movement, do you?

In some cases the range of body movement has nothing to do with training, it may be natural ability, ie genetics


To be “song “ is all about training

The first understanding what it means

How is it that some use Chinese words describing certain concepts

and then do not seem to understand the words use of the concepts they describe ?

Qi, Yi for example
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "mechanical trick"

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:40 pm

Appledog wrote:If you read the writings of Wang Yongquan on windwalker's blog, you will notice he practices what is said to be a kind of 'Yi gong'. This is spoken of frequently as a basic requirement of Tai Chi. Feng Zhiqiang said it, Chen zhenglei said it, Fu zhongwen said it, and a few others I can't remember off-hand. The practice takes many forms but it is essentially exactly as wang yongquan said in those writings.

The information is out there, but (to comment on something else you said) you get what you pay for. It is a very normal question for someone to ask, how much time and effort are you willing to invest in this, and how much money is it worth to you? I myself have spent decades and tens of thousands of dollars on this 'hobby' as well as significantly interrupting my life at various times go travel and learn.

I mention this because to me the answers to the questions you're asking are not just obvious but seem to be stated everywhere in the literature.

Honestly I don't think it is about secrets and I do not disparage you for asking but I really feel that for most people they just can't be bothered to explain all of these 'simple things' because it can take quite a while and frankly more often than not the answers are blatantly rejected out of hand by the people asking the question.

The truth is out there -- as agent mulder said.


Good post

Written well

Often those asking for answers
Don’t really want answers

They want their “answers “
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Re: "mechanical trick"

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:34 pm

I have met people who are that soong from the start due to their DNA
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: "mechanical trick"

Postby origami_itto on Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:19 am

windwalker wrote:
Appledog wrote:If you read the writings of Wang Yongquan on windwalker's blog, you will notice he practices what is said to be a kind of 'Yi gong'. This is spoken of frequently as a basic requirement of Tai Chi. Feng Zhiqiang said it, Chen zhenglei said it, Fu zhongwen said it, and a few others I can't remember off-hand. The practice takes many forms but it is essentially exactly as wang yongquan said in those writings.

The information is out there, but (to comment on something else you said) you get what you pay for. It is a very normal question for someone to ask, how much time and effort are you willing to invest in this, and how much money is it worth to you? I myself have spent decades and tens of thousands of dollars on this 'hobby' as well as significantly interrupting my life at various times go travel and learn.

I mention this because to me the answers to the questions you're asking are not just obvious but seem to be stated everywhere in the literature.

Honestly I don't think it is about secrets and I do not disparage you for asking but I really feel that for most people they just can't be bothered to explain all of these 'simple things' because it can take quite a while and frankly more often than not the answers are blatantly rejected out of hand by the people asking the question.

The truth is out there -- as agent mulder said.


Good post

Written well

Often those asking for answers
Don’t really want answers

They want their “answers “


Yes I do want "my" answer, I want something observable and reproducible with a resistant and non conditioned partner.

I don't see anything unusual in those writings. Practicing form without arms is foundation training, and I often run through my form completely while laying down. It makes for some very interesting energy movement.

But projecting shen, qi, and yi?

I'm not saying that these practices can't produce some results that subjectively seem like this sort of projection but I believe that's all it is, our limited understanding.

Shen, sure, I get it at a gross level and I've gotten some skill in operating effectively here. I don't believe there is a substance leaving my body to affect someone and coming back, I believe it's just their natural response to a multitude of subtle stimulus.

Yi? The idea being our mind projects? Sure, it feels like that, in a dynamic system of forces bumping into and sliding around each other, our intention is expressed in subtle adjustments that can translate into huge movements. We can join with their body and create a system and our superior ting jin means we maintain a more accurate picture of reality. Our superior bodily control means we control that system. When we feel their stirring we can interrupt their movements before they gain power enough to be effective.

Meh that sounds like qi too....

It's jin, the product of that process.

And jin is invisible and I guess intangible. It's what happens when all the science happens.

I have great respect for the Chinese systems of thought but we have to admit that their explanation of phenomena beyond their capacity to observe is limited in usefulness.

Have you ever read Cheng Man Ching's thoughts on gynecology? Cancer treatment? Bruh...

We know now exactly what happens to make a muscle fire. We've observed the chemical changes in nerve gates that guide signals from the brain to the body. We understand the way cells consume energy and how that energy is produced and stored.

We know that mental intention can measurably affect the way the body moves, though it may not be perceptible to our naked senses.

So while I don't doubt the effect, per se, I do doubt the theory behind the phenomena. I think maybe that idea of projection and retraction can be useful in getting the body to do it, but that ultimately we're talking about bodily movement being the engine that affects change in the opponent, even if that movement is invisible externally.

But I'm ignorant, I suck, my taijiquan is crap, I don't practice enough and when I do I practice the wrong things, yes, I understand that

Now, please, tell me what you think is happening. I mean sure "projecting qi" but what is the qi and what is it doing?
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
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