Your taiji maybe wrong

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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby windwalker on Sat May 28, 2022 11:13 am

robert wrote:In the Taiji Classics, in The Taijiquan Treatise of Wang Zongyue of Shanxi, dong jin, understanding jin, is discussed.

雖變化萬端。而理唯一貫。由著熟而漸悟懂劤。由懂劤而階及神明。然非用力之久。不能豁然貫通焉。


Brennan translates it thus -

Although there is an endless variety of possible scenarios, there is only this single principle [of yielding and sticking] throughout.
Once you have ingrained these techniques, you will gradually come to identify energies, and then from there you will work your way toward something miraculous. But unless you practice a lot over a long time, you will never have a breakthrough.


Here is a more literal translation.

The changes are endless. And yet there is only one principle, to be strung together. (It) becomes known as you gradually understand jin (懂劤/dong jin). From understanding jin you reach illumination. The correct way is to not exert oneself physically for a long time. (otherwise) you're not able to understand how to string together and connect.


How do you know it’s correct ?
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby Giles on Sat May 28, 2022 11:34 am

windwalker wrote:
robert wrote:In the Taiji Classics, in The Taijiquan Treatise of Wang Zongyue of Shanxi, dong jin, understanding jin, is discussed.

雖變化萬端。而理唯一貫。由著熟而漸悟懂劤。由懂劤而階及神明。然非用力之久。不能豁然貫通焉。


Brennan translates it thus -

Although there is an endless variety of possible scenarios, there is only this single principle [of yielding and sticking] throughout.
Once you have ingrained these techniques, you will gradually come to identify energies, and then from there you will work your way toward something miraculous. But unless you practice a lot over a long time, you will never have a breakthrough.


Here is a more literal translation.

The changes are endless. And yet there is only one principle, to be strung together. (It) becomes known as you gradually understand jin (懂劤/dong jin). From understanding jin you reach illumination. The correct way is to not exert oneself physically for a long time. (otherwise) you're not able to understand how to string together and connect.


How do you know it’s correct ?


If you have a translation you believe to be better, please provide it or link to it.
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby windwalker on Sat May 28, 2022 11:45 am

Giles wrote:
If you have a translation you believe to be better, please provide it or link to it.


Why would one use somebody else’s words for something they do.

If you have a good way to explain it , go for it

I like and agree with the teachers General idea, although there may be some small differences in application.
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby Bao on Sat May 28, 2022 12:07 pm

Chinese is a contextual language and older Chinese is very dense. It should rather be explained than translated. Brennan thinks about the context and understand that the subject is often left out. But sometimes I think he simplifies things too much. A character or concept can have more than one layer of meaning and there could be an ambivalence as well. It would be better to have a detailed explanation besides that you could use together with the translation. Sadly, this is not common at all.
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 28, 2022 12:53 pm

Luck has it that my art comes from Taiwan ,HK and Malaysia
Places that could teach many a westerner about the English language
One being a professor of English
Everything being explained it minute detail
My Malaysian Wu style teacher was going thru Wu,s gold book with me
He said this is quite hard to explain even my teacher who is a scholar classical mandarin has trouble explaining it
But your teacher(an Australian with a minimal education) has the best understanding of the classics I have ever met
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby robert on Sat May 28, 2022 1:03 pm

windwalker wrote:How do you know it’s correct ?

I can do it. I also asked Chen Bing about the character 貫 (guan), to be strung together. I asked and also demonstrated being connected and he said yes, that's what 貫 (guan) means. The general idea is fairly common in CIMA.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby windwalker on Sat May 28, 2022 1:11 pm

robert wrote:
windwalker wrote:How do you know it’s correct ?

I can do it.

I also asked Chen Bing about the character 貫 (guan), to be strung together. I asked and also demonstrated being connected and he said yes, that's what 貫 (guan) means. The general idea is fairly common in CIMA.



Then why use a translation....?

Why not just share your view point....or show differences between "your" understanding vs someone else..

Was there a point to be made by posting a translation, with no commentary ?


As to "doing" always levels of skill in this aspect, in some cases it may even be opposite of what is done once a certain level of skill understanding is reached.
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby robert on Sat May 28, 2022 1:34 pm

windwalker wrote:Then why use a translation....?

Why should anyone listen to me? To my knowledge Yang, Chen, and Wu styles all acknowledge the Taijiquan Classics.

windwalker wrote:Was there a point to be made by posting a translation, with no commentary ?

I didn't think commentary was necessary. I think a fair number of people on the forum understand it without commentary. To understand jin you need to train for a long time without exerting force. The implication is that you train the form to understand and to develop jin.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby windwalker on Sat May 28, 2022 2:12 pm

robert wrote:I didn't think commentary was necessary. I think a fair number of people on the forum understand it without commentary. To understand jin you need to train for a long time without exerting force. The implication is that you train the form to understand and to develop jin.



you understand kong jin :o
if you do, don't say anything about to anyone,,,they won't like it :)

Why should anyone listen to me? To my knowledge Yang, Chen, and Wu styles all acknowledge the Taijiquan Classics.


Not really, in fact my own teacher felt there were misunderstandings in them, and advised not to pay too much attention to them...better to practice and work it out for ones self.
Found his view point to be correct "for me" :)

On the net,,,all have an equal voice , some post are interesting generating a dialogue, others are not....
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 28, 2022 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby robert on Sat May 28, 2022 2:34 pm

windwalker wrote:you understand kong jin :o
if you do, don't say anything about to anyone,,,they won't like it :)

What I was taught, I've never had an opportunity to practice. If someone advances and over-commits you move out of the way and let them fall. I've never seen it happen.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 28, 2022 6:29 pm

I’ve seen it happen in street fights quite often
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Your taiji maybe wrong

Postby Doc Stier on Sat May 28, 2022 7:38 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I’ve seen it happen in street fights quite often

So have I. Why would anyone bother learning and practicing effective neutralization skills if they aren't going to use them to get out of the way when necessary? -shrug-
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