A new standard short form in China

[Appledog]

Apparently this is the new standard first form of taiji taught in China.

I've looked at the research. Using computer modelling and groups of people they compared things like hip and ankle flexion, weight loading, total impact of the exercise etc. and found that minute for minute it was the same or better than the 24.

I kinda like it, for beginners anyways. Then there still needs to be a bridge form to the long form -- maybe something like the 24 but a bit longer since we have this form now. Any thoughts?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKiLbW78A0M

Apparently one of the reasons it was developed or had become popular is because of confinement due to covid-19.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR169x_jB00

[origami_itto]

She talks too much, got tired of waiting for her to get to the form lol.
Usually like her videos and conversation on Facebook, I just get tired of too much pointless chatter in video.

Forms are forms, how you do them is more important than how they're done. Short ones are good for beginners to get a sense of accomplishment I guess.

One thing I don't like is that I prefer teaching a full space form and then teaching jailhouse stepping to give the student the ability to dynamically adjust the footwork as needed to fit in a smaller space. I feel like that's a more useful skill than "learn a space restricted form then learn a space unrestricted form"

If they knew their Taijiquan they never would have made a space restricted form, honestly. Should be able to do the whole 150 posture form with jailhouse steps in the space an ox takes up laying down.

[Bao]

Not everything called Taijiquan is Taijiquan.

I guess it could have some value as a drill or fundamental exercise if the "energies" were actually performed correctly and if there was some kind of real Tai Chi engine in there somewhere. And not only performed as lazy qigong.

Usually like her videos and conversation on Facebook,

Same here, I like her.

I have a feeling that she is marketing this towards the health and qi-hugging crowd. Nothing wrong with that. It's there the money is.

However, form-wise speaking, I liked the version in the second video better. ...But I suspect that it might have something to do with the music...

If they knew their Taijiquan they never would have made a space restricted form, honestly. Should be able to do the whole 150 posture form with jailhouse steps in the space an ox takes up laying down.

Agreed.

[edededed]

My opinion is - all the new forms are unnecessary and a waste of time.

If the traditional form is too long, just learn/teach the 1st section. There is always the choice to learn more after that, too.

Making all these new forms just adds fluff to a curriculum to drag it out more and more - great for commercial schools perhaps, but not for learners.

[Urs Krebs]

This Wu Bu Ba Fa routine is some of the most unnessecary things the Chinese Wushu Association ever produced (and they produced many unnecessary things). They somehow realized that they have a lack of Ji Grades in their Grading System (they start with Duan) and so they produced this BS to have something for the Ji Grades.

[origami_itto]

My opinion is - all the new forms are unnecessary and a waste of time.

If the traditional form is too long, just learn/teach the 1st section. There is always the choice to learn more after that, too.

Making all these new forms just adds fluff to a curriculum to drag it out more and more - great for commercial schools perhaps, but not for learners.

This is the right answer but I believe students are easier to keep by "completing" a shorter form, giving them a "thing" to work and practice vs one piece that is entirely sufficient but not a whole thing.

[edededed]

My opinion is - all the new forms are unnecessary and a waste of time.

If the traditional form is too long, just learn/teach the 1st section. There is always the choice to learn more after that, too.

Making all these new forms just adds fluff to a curriculum to drag it out more and more - great for commercial schools perhaps, but not for learners.

This is the right answer but I believe students are easier to keep by "completing" a shorter form, giving them a "thing" to work and practice vs one piece that is entirely sufficient but not a whole thing.

What I don't like especially is that it just creates additional things to practice without meaning.

So, a student who learns taiji for several years will send up with an 8-step form, a 12-step form, a 24-step form, a 40-step form, etc ... and the traditional 108-step form. Time will be wasted practicing all the forms leading up to the traditional one.

Just let the students "complete" the long form by sections. You could even call them different forms. (Traditionally it was divided into 6 sections, anyway).

If one needs to cut even more, just cut into very small pieces and teach that first (e.g. just the qishi to peng lu ji an for example).

[origami_itto]

My opinion is - all the new forms are unnecessary and a waste of time.

If the traditional form is too long, just learn/teach the 1st section. There is always the choice to learn more after that, too.

Making all these new forms just adds fluff to a curriculum to drag it out more and more - great for commercial schools perhaps, but not for learners.

This is the right answer but I believe students are easier to keep by "completing" a shorter form, giving them a "thing" to work and practice vs one piece that is entirely sufficient but not a whole thing.

What I don't like especially is that it just creates additional things to practice without meaning.

So, a student who learns taiji for several years will send up with an 8-step form, a 12-step form, a 24-step form, a 40-step form, etc ... and the traditional 108-step form. Time will be wasted practicing all the forms leading up to the traditional one.

Just let the students "complete" the long form by sections. You could even call them different forms. (Traditionally it was divided into 6 sections, anyway).

If one needs to cut even more, just cut into very small pieces and teach that first (e.g. just the qishi to peng lu ji an for example).

True, true. A proliferation of forms doesn't necessarily serve anything.

If you consider them purely as vehicles for a particular end, then yes, one form is sufficient, and in that respect, using modern understanding guided by an accurate understanding of what's contained in a particular system could help one construct a meta-form that would cover all the bases.

However... you can also consider forms as artistic expressions similar to pieces of music or poetry. They can be appreciated passively or experientially by playing them. To that end "collecting" forms from disparate lineages can serve as a library of songs one can play for their own amusement, or poetry to recite aloud alone in a contemplative mood. A museum of thoughts of past masters. Maybe your cup of tea, maybe not.

You can also consider disparate forms as serving different purposes. Basic jibengong, advanced movement, particular flavors of movement, flow. Weapons forms in particular can distill particular qualities of movement and intention.

A teacher refers to taijiquan as a many faceted gem, and different forms and exercises and ways of performing each of them, when properly focused, can polish those flat edges and create a scintillating jewel. He cautions against trying to mix purposes as that can "round off" the edges and muddy the light.

8 gates and 5 steps... 8 notes and 5 octaves? How much is enough exploration of their melodies?

[origami_itto]

Okay and saying that, and actually looking at the Ba Fa Wu Bu, I really like that, and the names were so straight forward I could pretty much tell exactly what they were doing.

I didn't necessarily like the way they in particular were moving, but I love the systematic approach to the movement fundamentals. If we continue the music metaphor it's like scales, a great way to understand the building blocks of the rest of the form in a very straightforward way, instead of being buried within esoteric movements. A good intro.

[D_Glenn]

My opinion is - all the new forms are unnecessary and a waste of time.

If the traditional form is too long, just learn/teach the 1st section. There is always the choice to learn more after that, too.

Making all these new forms just adds fluff to a curriculum to drag it out more and more - great for commercial schools perhaps, but not for learners.

Something Chen Xiao Wang told me, about all these short forms, when the goal is to know the form like the back of your hand, so that you don’t have to think about what you’re doing or what comes next. So that it can serve its purpose as being a Xing Zhuang (moving meditation, where new mental and physiological states are entered into), he divided the long form into 16 sections, (not an equal number of moves in each section, but each section has at least one traditional FaLi (issuing power)). Where the student will first learn 1 section that they can practice over and over again to feel the state changes and benefit from the developments in mental clarity and physicality. And then spend some time ‘Learning’ a second subsequent section. Then once you ‘Know’ it. Then combine those two, and begin learning another. He said most people doing Taijiquan are never getting the full benefits because they don’t practice long enough in a given day and are just perpetually stuck in the ‘Learning’ phase. Back when all he and his friends were just practicing TJQ all day long. They could learn the long form. But with an hour, maybe 2, no chance.

[Edit- another thing CXW pointed out is that he has to distinguish the intermittent ‘Fa’ Issuing movements dispersed throughout the Chen form are not “Fajin” as it’s typically seen throughout the TJQ world. He thinks that somewhere along the way, the term used for when someone is thrown out, or upwards during push hands, is ‘Ti Fang’. And somehow the ‘Fang’ became confused with ‘Fajin’.
He also talked about how everyone is always asking him about the 3rd form “Sanshou” aka the Fajin Form. But he said that’s just another form you have to learn. You need to first learn how to Fa Li in every movement of the 1st form. Then he demonstrated a section where he was doing that.]

According to Yin Fu, Dong Haichuan jokingly told him, “Taijiquan people need to learn 108 movements to practice Xing Zhuang. With Circle Turning we only have to learn two movements- Bai and Kou.”

.

[wayne hansen]

So many mistakes in what she does
Starting with the fact she can’t even raise both hands evenly at the start
She dosent know where wardoff ends and roll back starts
As for the form split is silly shoulder stroke is not there
The couple doing the new standard that is worked out buy computer can’t even do it the same
I do a similar form which I keep for my advanced students which I think is of great value
I should upload it here but I won’t because it would please windy

[Doc Stier]

I do a similar form which I keep for my advanced students which I think is of great value
I should upload it here but I won’t because it would please windy

Hahaha! Well, understandably, you certainly wouldn't want to give him that small satisfaction after all this time. LOL

[yeniseri]

Personally, I don't like it but if someone sees a benefit, then so be it....

When I began to learn a "traditional" form (a la Chengfu) 50 years ago (ooops, my age ) I gave up on these new Beijingtaijiquan forms because there is only so much one can learn.
I did learn 40shitaijiquan, 42shitaijiquan, 66shitaijiquan and 48shitaijiqun but I was bummed out with all the 'awkward variations so I just stopped learning the forms. Some I have added my own postural corrections/updates, etc later on in my 40s's that I incorporated from some old school teachers but the nandu requirements just don't fit into 'yangshneg teachnolgies" or sometimes movements are wasted. Again, A relative point of view!

NOTE: The reasons I learned the initial short forms was that for competition one had to play said forms as part of reportoire so when I was younger and foolish (I still maybe) it was a memory challenge
My teacher did Chinese New Year celebrations for about 5 years and wushuquan/taijiquan/nanquan/changquan were part of the celebrations!.

The bafawubu routine cannot even break a sweat but I guess it does fit the seniors/old folks,ec activity in the absence of no activity, if they find an interest.

[taiwandeutscher]

This Wu Bu Ba Fa routine is some of the most unnessecary things the Chinese Wushu Association ever produced (and they produced many unnecessary things). They somehow realized that they have a lack of Ji Grades in their Grading System (they start with Duan) and so they produced this BS to have something for the Ji Grades.

Exactly! So most of those Duanwei holders are in fact just students, we had 7 Ji and 10 Duan, no one ever cared, except the ministry of education, lmao.

[Doc Stier]

This Wu Bu Ba Fa routine is some of the most unnessecary things the Chinese Wushu Association ever produced (and they produced many unnecessary things). They somehow realized that they have a lack of Ji Grades in their Grading System (they start with Duan) and so they produced this BS to have something for the Ji Grades.

Exactly! So most of those Duanwei holders are in fact just students, we had 7 Ji and 10 Duan, no one ever cared, except the ministry of education, lmao.

Very true. Those who acquire genuine skill in any martial art carry their certification with them in both hands everywhere they go. It won't be necessary to show anyone a paper certificate of rank in order to validate their skills.

Conversely, to display certificates of rank which suggest skills levels that haven't actually been achieved is inevitably destined to be a source of public embarrassment and personal loss of face. Oh, well. It is what it is.