the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

[youtube]. https://youtu.be/2IEJnnNt250[/youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IEJnnNt250

fixed link

interesting video....and comments...

Thanks

I've never fenced but about 14 years ago I played around with a fencing instructor at the Y for about ten minutes. We couldn't touch each other. I don't know if you could knock a foil out of someone's hand like that.

My teacher who is the best pushing hands guy I have met fenced
His teachers name was Giles Standish
He would spar with Eric while holding a full glass of port
Eric told me he never got near passing Giles guard

wayne hansen wrote:My teacher who is the best pushing hands guy I have met fenced
His teachers name was Giles Standish
He would spar with Eric while holding a full glass of port
Eric told me he never got near passing Giles guard

The other day I was playing ping pong holding a cup of hot coffee till my boss made a comment about it and I thought to put it down for corporate safety regulation reasons. I just switched the cup over to my left hand when I picked up the paddle and started goofing off, but the action from the paddle never made it to that hand so no worries.

There's a particular skill I find in taijiquan where we can move the entire body but the hand would stay completely motionless in space, almost like a steadicam. Tons of applicability in close quarter and weapon combat IMHO.

Like you pick up a chicken and their head stays in the same spot while you move them around

So he never learned the sword? Yeah, that’s pretty evident.

The set-up for this demonstration (or whatever one wants to call it) is once again designed to allow Mizner to look great by doing something that involves a certain level of skill - and simultaneously prevents the fencer from using his own actual abilities, with which he could take out Mizner in a couple of seconds.
Mizner's block/parry seems like the 'block to a spot' technique that Nathan Menaged once showed me, which he in turn had from William C.C. Chen. (I'm talking about the principles here, not the exact move). This was years ago, and I was pretty much a beginner back then. But it still let me block a full-strength (and previously agreed, and predictable) haymaker by a big and strong martial artist, just by raising my hand and putting my mind to a suitable spot about 35 cm out from my temple. In other words, not trying to 'go against' the incoming blow. To me it felt like I was doing nothing, no shock to my arm or wrist (I'm skinny), and after the third time he gave up because he was afraid it would injure or break his forearm. It's based on one type of good body mechanics, but it's still basically a trick. At least when you know what's coming and it's just this one telegraphed attack.
I did a couple of years fencing as a teenager. If the fencer here were to carry out anything remotely resembling the kind of attack he'd use in a competition, with proper timing, without it being massively telegraphed as it is here, I'm pretty sure the outcome would be different.

Let’s review.

The guy is supposed to have some knowledge of fencing, and has a record of competition.

He says he’s never felt anything quite like what he felt.

Is he lying, faking, or what?

Try listening to what he says he feels, not what is done

I have three simple observations regarding the OP video.

First, just like all of his other videos, it is a promotional demonstration video intended to attract new students.

Secondly, those among you who are not impressed by what is shown, for whatever reasons, are not the target audience.

Thirdly, controversy generates reactivate discussion and debate, which in turn amounts to free publicity.

Thus, whether you like the video or not, it effectively serves its purpose.

Giles wrote: But it still let me block a full-strength (and previously agreed, and predictable) haymaker by a big and strong martial artist, just by raising my hand and putting my mind to a suitable spot about 35 cm out from my temple. In other words, not trying to 'go against' the incoming blow. To me it felt like I was doing nothing, no shock to my arm or wrist (I'm skinny), and after the third time he gave up because he was afraid it would injure or break his forearm. It's based on one type of good body mechanics, but it's still basically a trick.

Good explanation. Yeah, it should be pretty easy.

If the fencer here were to carry out anything remotely resembling the kind of attack he'd use in a competition, with proper timing, without it being massively telegraphed as it is here, I'm pretty sure the outcome would be different.

Exactly.

... Still no one has said the obvious - No one would treat a real jian like that. No one with a real jian would want to it to break or risk the edge being damaged. You naver hit or block another jian with the edge. That is just not how you use it.

Doc Stier wrote:Secondly, those among you who are not impressed by what is shown, for whatever reasons, are not the target audience.
...
Thus, whether you like the video or not, it effectively serves its purpose.

No one who knows something about fencing (many do. Have done traditional fencing myself, not much though.) or understand something about the jian or practice jianfa (chinese swordplay) would take this serious. So I am not sure what purpose it would serve.

windwalker wrote:He says he’s never felt anything quite like what he felt.

He has never held a wooden jian and no one has done that before. Of course it must be different. He knows that he is in a documentary about "qi" so he tries to verbalise his experience in a way matching what they are doing.

Try listening to what he says he feels, not what is done

Oh. You care about people's feelings?

Of course you should look at what is happening and use your own brain. Couldn't care less about how he feels.

...

Where is Mr Babin when you need him? As he has done a lot jianfa, I suspect that his take on this would be enlightening.

Doc Stier wrote:Thirdly, controversy generates reactivate discussion and debate, which in turn amounts to free publicity.

Thus, whether you like the video or not, it effectively serves its purpose.

Well, that's true. So in that respect I guess we're all puppets dancing on his strings. Well done, Adam...

windwalker wrote:Let’s review.

The guy is supposed to have some knowledge of fencing, and has a record of competition.

He says he’s never felt anything quite like what he felt.

Is he lying, faking, or what?

Try listening to what he says he feels, not what is done

I listened. He's not lying or faking. But he's already been recruited into this circus, so at the time the cameras roll, a filtering process has already taken place. The thing is: just over the last 12 months I've encountered several experienced and strong martial artists (e.g. kick boxing, randori-heavy judo, kung fu+HEMA, but no experience with the 'internal' arts), either as prospective/new students or in other exchange formats, who have been startled at their difficulty in moving me around and my ability to move them around with little to no effort, in a friendly empty-hand format. Or to move through their defences to gain a good destabilizing/striking position. And this mostly in a much more free-form context than the carefully constructed formats in the video. All the more so because I'm a fairly slim (but tall) 59-year-old tai chi guy. "Huh, how are you doing this..?!?". Nice feedback or a little ego-boost for me, as long as I remember to keep it real. Because:
1. I'm not a tai chi master, I'm intermediate level, I'm not using any kind of "Qi" power in the mysterious/esoteric sense, I'm using physics/bio-mechanics. Based also on softness/song and a reasonably disciplined mind. I can explain to them in 1 minute exactly what I'm doing and how they would need to train their body and mind to do the same thing. (Although doing it in less-predictable situations takes a lot more training time). It's just normal tai chi chuan, at an intermediate level.
2. If I were to go up against the experienced kick-boxer or judoka or HEMA guy in a free sparring situation, then I might still do reasonably well (especially if the exchange could be limited to a few seconds, like in most real fights) but I would no longer seem miraculous. And there's a damn good chance that each guy would end up wiping the floor with me, too.

So that's why I'm not going "wow, crazy qi power!" when I see this footage.

Okay so what's a trick? I mean anything that produces an effect can be a legitimate tactic.

I agree that you don't go edge to edge with a jian, but if you look at where he is hitting there, he's using the bottom section of blade, jiangen, which in a combat capable weapon would be thicker and blunt and intended for blocking and striking and controlling the opponent's weapons.

You can see this illustrated in the san sai fencing set which you may or may not be familiar with.

In my opinion this is a perfectly valid tactic and as much legitimate taijiquan as any jian technique can be said to be. Striking the flat of the opponents blade with the narrow side of the jiangen can transfer enough energy to disarm or break a weaker blade.

But like any technique, it's only useful in the specific context in which it is useful. To say "well if they do this" misses the point. Everything has a counter if the opponent is prepared for it.

I think the primary difference the fencer felt is due to the fact that a foil is not a jian. They don't handle the same, they don't hit the same, they don't transfer energy the same. A wooden jian isn't meant to hit anything. They're just sword like objects for choreography practice, not bokken.

Fencing is mainly in the fingers the weapons are very light and well balanced and it's a game of speed and precision, not power. He's playing a completely different game here.