Force Transmission Part 4

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Force Transmission Part 4

Postby Oliver 101 on Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:28 pm

Check it out. Imho one of the best explanations of IMA skills that can be found on the net.

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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby Giles on Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:41 am

Thanks for posting Naseem's stuff here, Oliver.

To all: I've taken part in a couple of seminars given by Yu Guang De (from Dalian) and his leading student Naseem (from Germany) and I can strongly recommend both of them for their skills, teaching abilities and personalities.
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby origami_itto on Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:58 am

Very good stuff thanks
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby cloudz on Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:08 am

could anyone give me the cliff notes of what he was trying to convey on that clip please?
Couldn't follow this one - starting with part 4 seems illogical right.

seemed like a big deal, so I'm curious what it is..
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby Giles on Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:05 pm

cloudz wrote:could anyone give me the cliff notes of what he was trying to convey on that clip please?


Essence: translating horizontal force acting on your body into vertical force within your body, and hence returning that force back to the attacker in a way that overcomes and/or uproots the attacker. Also generating 'penetrating power' in the same manner, mentioned at the end.

In a way basic stuff, but not explicitly stated and/or realized nearly as much as it should be in the IMA world.

My recommendation in entry 2 in this thread wasn't based so much on these explanatory videos (although I think they are very sound), but on the whole 'package' in this incarnation of ziranmen.
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby Oliver 101 on Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:13 am

Giles wrote:In a way basic stuff, but not explicitly stated and/or realized nearly as much as it should be in the IMA world.


Thank you for your comment, Giles. I hope you are fine.
In fact it is basic stuff, but very hard to do on a high level/ under heavy pressure.
Especially if you want to be able to do it without having to think about it.
Therefore it is also very advanced, when properly understood.
Imo it is the "engine" and most important skill to have in every internal martial art.
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:44 am

Oliver 101 wrote:In fact it is basic stuff, but very hard to do on a high level/ under heavy pressure.
Especially if you want to be able to do it without having to think about it.

I understand this point from the perspective of my own personal training regimen, but I'd like to hear how you train to do so without having to think about it. Thanks.
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby cloudz on Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:29 am

thanks Giles,



okay, cool. I understand some of that but not all. just goes to show how it can be difficult at times to convey these things to others.. the first sentence is puzzling me. In that does it have to be a horizontal force - the vectors/ trajectories, I/ unclear what part they really play in the explanation. So to me i would describe firstly receiving and or borrowing force; so does it matter what type.. And couldn't you issue any type of trajectory ?

But okay, he is perhaps using a specific example.
Then we come to the issuing of either long or short force by the sounds of it

When you speak of translating, are we talking basically neutralising / borrowing and issue.

a way basic stuff, but not explicitly stated and/or realized nearly as much as it should be in the IMA world.


Yes agreed, I was going to say something like that but with more a sprinkling of scorn and sadness to be fair. :)

recommendation in entry 2 in this thread wasn't based so much on these explanatory videos (although I think they are very sound), but on the whole 'package' in this incarnation of ziranmen.


I don't know these guys but happy to take your word, I follow Serge's (Urban Taoist) work, to an extent, who is a lineage holder in this system. Have always held some curiosity and interest towards the style/ system. There are some good books published on it through Serge and Alex Kozma
Last edited by cloudz on Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:49 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby Giles on Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:08 pm

Hi Cloudz, two remarks in response to your post (I could write more but time limited right now):
And also with the caveat that I'm now writing mostly from the perspective of my own understanding and my own stuff. So I don't claim at all to be speaking on behalf of Naseem. He or others closer to him can do that.

- As I understand it, linking in to the video above, 'horizontal' force is usually, and strongly, generated when an attacker essentially throws his centre forwards ('horizontally') against you. This can be as a strike or a grapple. It doesn't mean that the attacker is hence automatically a fool who can't keep his balance; the use of horizontal force can also be done in a skilled and controlled way. But the attacker's mass is still essentially being thrown forwards. IMAs tend (?!) to use vertical force in the sense that as you defend/counter/attack, you keep your alignment and sink your weight downwards through your feet ('root') and use this dynamic to simultaneously generate your engaging movements/techniques. These may also appear as 'horizontal' to the untrained eye, but they are generated on the basis of this vertical force. Strikes, uprootings, throws, locks etc. The quality, the effect and also what happens next are affected by this approach. It's why so many IMA training exercises work with this action, or quality, or whatever. One might also argue that it's part of what actually makes IMAs 'internal'. But don't quote me on that... ;)

- The Ziranmen here has the same name but has quite a different lineage and content than that of, for instance, Serge Augier. This was already a theme on RSF a couple of years ago (search function will probably deliver on this).
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby Oliver 101 on Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:50 pm

Doc Stier wrote:
Oliver 101 wrote:In fact it is basic stuff, but very hard to do on a high level/ under heavy pressure.
Especially if you want to be able to do it without having to think about it.

I understand this point from the perspective of my own personal training regimen, but I'd like to hear how you train to do so without having to think about it. Thanks.


You want to train it with less and less yi, to make it an unconcious skill. Like riding a bicycle.
You need to train highly repetitive drills to achieve this result.
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby Oliver 101 on Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:03 pm

cloudz wrote:I don't know these guys but happy to take your word, I follow Serge's (Urban Taoist) work, to an extent, who is a lineage holder in this system. Have always held some curiosity and interest towards the style/ system. There are some good books published on it through Serge and Alex Kozma


Hello Cloudz,
just to make it clear. Nasseem´s Ziranmen lineage has absolutely no (historical or current) connection whatsoever to the lineage of Serge Augier.
The styles just happen to have the same name.
I would recommend having a look at Nasseem´s Facebook and Youtube channels for further information.
You can even find some free lesson videos on his Facebook channel.

https://www.facebook.com/ziranmengermany

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6xCptb_KHAAPZnIRBx0s5Q/videos

Best wishes,
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:08 am

Oliver 101 wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:
Oliver 101 wrote:In fact it is basic stuff, but very hard to do on a high level/ under heavy pressure.
Especially if you want to be able to do it without having to think about it.

I understand this point from the perspective of my own personal training regimen, but I'd like to hear how you train to do so without having to think about it. Thanks.


You want to train it with less and less yi, to make it an unconcious skill. Like riding a bicycle.
You need to train highly repetitive drills to achieve this result.

Of course, but how do you envision training "with less and less yi"? Do you think this is achieved solely or primarily through "highly repetitive drills"? Or do other additional factors affect the outcome as well?
Last edited by Doc Stier on Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby origami_itto on Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:03 am

Doc Stier wrote:
Oliver 101 wrote:You need to train highly repetitive drills to achieve this result.

Of course, but how do you envision training "with less and less yi"? You think this is achieved solely or primarily through "highly repetitive drills"? Or do other additional factors affect the outcome as well?


Is the path through mindless repetitiveness?
It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that jing.
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:16 pm

It depends on weather you mean Mindless or Mindless
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Re: Force Transmission Part 4

Postby Quigga on Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:20 pm

Generally speaking, people lose their plan when being punched in the mouth - Tyson

Integrate your plan into your body so it can't be punched out of you - Kwiatek
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