dynamic force

[windwalker]

The thread

"Paul Vunak - Isometric Strength"

Reminded me of an old friend I knew in high school in the 70s who studied Wing Chun, under Chris Chan.

They practiced what was called "dynamic tension" said to increase power and speed.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y3OnMnaHiw

Sifu Yao Performs Siu Nim Tao at Chris Chan's
Market St. School in Downtown San Francisco, Circa early 1990s.

Shifu, Chris Chan, narrating, coaching the demo

True Wing Chun Power

The secret of dynamic tension training in the Wing Chun kung fu system as taught by Grandmaster Chris Chan, student of the late Great Grandmaster Yip Man. Through dynamic tension you will MORE THAN DOUBLE your internal power by training in as little as 5 minutes per day!

https://www.wingchundynamics.com/sifu-ken-chun

While interesting totally opposite of the type of force that taiji develops...

Some history of Chan, shifu..
Watched him do some wooden dummy work long ago,,
quite impressive...at the time..

Grandmaster Chris Chan

It is not very well known that Grandmaster Chan was actually a close friend, classmate, and training partner of the late famous Bruce Lee.
During the 1960s, the two of them were well known for stirring up challenge matches with formal karate and kung fu instructors throughout the San Francisco area.

It was also during those times that Grandmaster Chan and his close students would venture out on “field trips” to test their fighting skills in the bars, pool halls, and the streets of San Francisco. Grandmaster Chan and Bruce Lee were the first kung fu instructors to break the barrier and teach the Chinese martial arts to the American public.

They are credited with introducing and demonstrating the short-distance power technique which they later coined the term of “one-inch power”.

https://www.wingchundynamics.com/sifu-ken-chun

[wayne hansen]

This is basically how Chau Gar is done

[Bhassler]

While interesting totally opposite of the type of force that taiji develops...

I don't know that it's opposite, but maybe a prerequisite. It's a pretty standard progression in CMA. Hard force to build the connection, fajin to express and deepen the connection, then soft practice to refine it. IMA people love to talk about hidden jin and various forms of subtle jin, but you have to actually build some jin before you can get fancy with it. Too many people try to follow the results, rather than the process that consistently delivers the results.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwpHuTwjS30

Movement starts at about 1:30.

[windwalker]

Based on my own work / history of past masters

Would not agree.

With the caveat

it might also depend on the method or theory of taiji practice that one follows.
Have worked with many Taji people, who to had relearn all they thought they knew in order to pursue something they felt an interest in.

In some cases they might have too much muscle memory to overcome.

@Bhassler

Last year completed a five-year experiment answering some of my own questions.
IME it’s not really possible. It’s much better to start off from the beginning with the practice that one wants to develop
Although it might take awhile before one really understands the path that best fits them or their real interest...

[windwalker]

This is basically how Chau Gar is done

It very much reminded me of southern mantis.

Haven’t seen this form in a while,
the similarities are striking.

[wayne hansen]

I have been looking at a lot of Fukien white crane
Even though most people see the Jin being expressed with tensile strength like in the clip above
They learn to do it in a soft relaxed manner and the Jin comes later
I like this guy https://youtu.be/wGhMv6Yg-w4
Make sure you watch the end where he does some hsing I type stuff

[Bhassler]

it might also depend on the method or theory of taiji practice that one follows.
Have worked with many Taji people, who to had relearn all they thought they knew in order to pursue something they felt an interest in.

Very much agree with both of those sentiments. I think you and I are pursuing very different ideas of taijiquan, but some things hold true of any deep practice.

In some cases they might have too much muscle memory to overcome.

In my experience, which spans quite a few domains of movement education, this is almost always a deficiency in the teaching. Some folks require a higher level of commitment than others if they want to rewire certain aspects of their neurology, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the nervous system and neuroplasticity. If the system is coherent and the teacher is skilled enough, it will absorb and overtake whatever came before.

It’s much better to start off from the beginning with the practice that one wants to develop

Yes, if you know what it is and can find it. Most of us have to fumble around for quite a while before we can find what we're really looking for.

I have been looking at a lot of Fukien white crane
Even though most people see the Jin being expressed with tensile strength like in the clip above
They learn to do it in a soft relaxed manner and the Jin comes later
I like this guy https://youtu.be/wGhMv6Yg-w4
Make sure you watch the end where he does some hsing I type stuff

That's a fantastic find, Wayne. Some really great stuff in there.

[windwalker]

In my experience, which spans quite a few domains of movement education, this is almost always a deficiency in the teaching.
Some folks require a higher level of commitment than others if they want to rewire certain aspects of their neurology, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the nervous system and neuroplasticity.

If the system is coherent and the teacher is skilled enough, it will absorb and overtake whatever came before.

Looks like we have very different experiences , my own experience spanning what some might call a long time, in my case decades
While an interesting conversation, haven't seen much that would change my own viewpoint, at the same time understanding others have theirs...
makes the conversation interesting

Might mention the differences between Tibetan White Crane for example and Northern mantis...
quite different yet in some aspects very similar in the physicality of how they deal with movement.


With what some might label as "internal" or maybe the "way" its expressed is even more different making the expression and use quite difficult to get if one has trained for any length of time in something ***else, with out making a total comment to get...In some cases depending on what was learned before some teachers won't even teach a person feeling its not worth the effort.

***
often those having trained in other types of taiji, are some of the most difficult, to retrain....if even possible


what is written expresses my experience

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Translated by Richard Man,
http://facebook.com/groups/IMA.LiteraryTradition


一般理解，所謂勁兒，是把本身的神、意、氣集中到一點上，再把這個點運用到某個姿勢上
去。經過長期的鍛煉以後，就會逐漸擴大增長起來，變成一種力。這種力是經過鍛煉取得的，
是後天之拙力。這種力形式大、動量滯、變換遲、動的去路直，在技擊方面用起來，因身形動
作大，運動量較強，因此影響內氣的波動，易於浮躁。這近於長拳的練法和要求。

One theory to develop Jin (refined force) is to concentrate Shen, Yi and Qi in one point, and then use this point to drive the movements. After a long time of practice, the movements get bigger and carry a powerful force. Since this force is from diligent practice, it’s called the 後天 (After Heaven) "awkward" force. The force is powerful, strong and heavy, react and change slowly, done with straight and direct movements.

When you perform martial movements, because the forms and movements are large, you exercise more vigorously. This effects your Qi to move roughly, making it easy to be restless. This is the training methods and requirements of the “Long Fist” (translator: i.e. external martial arts).

初練太極拳的人覺得太極拳的練法與上面的練法相似，其實不然。如果按照太極拳的理論要求
，經過一段時間的鍛煉，逐漸把理論與姿勢結合起來，就會很明顯地感覺出來，上面的練法和
要求是與太極拳不同的。練習太極拳的要求，是把本身的神、意、氣化合歸一，融合在一起，
形成一種輕靈圓活之勁兒。這種勁兒是以氣、意混之為主。它的本質是氣，對它的要求是空、
虛、散，而不是集聚的。這就是太極勁兒，又叫做先天勁兒。


When a person first learns Tai Chi Chuan, they may think that Tai Chi Chuan is practiced the same way as described above, but that is not true. If they follow the requirements of the Tai Chi Chuan theory, after a period of training, combining their understanding of the theory and the form practices, they would begin to understand that the above written methods are not the same as those of the Tai Chi Chuan.

Tai Chi Chuan requires that harmonizing Shen, Yi, and Qi into one, acting together, and become a Jin (refined force) that is light, agile, round and lively.

This type of Jin comes from the mixing of Qi and Yi. Its nature is Qi, and requires Empty, “Transparent,” and “dispersed”, and not gathered. This is Tai Chi Jin, also known as 先天(“Pre Heaven”) Jin.

In my own work, the above statement rings true..

As noted, others might find different for "their" practices....

[Doc Stier]

This is basically how Chau Gar is done

It very much reminded me of southern mantis.

Agreed. During my many years of private study with the late 5th Generation Jook Lum Pai Southern Praying Mantis GM Gin-Foon Mark, I was often surprised by the similarities between the Jook Lum SPM System and the three IMA styles of our Shen Men Tao System, especially in comparison to the Shansi Xingyiquan style.

Master Mark was defensively soft, circular, and flexible, as well as agile and evasive, with incredible offensive speed and awesome short power which had to be experienced to be truly appreciated. Even well past 75 years of age, he could deliver extremely fast combinations of short power punches and hand strikes that hit like a Mack truck. Definitely dynamic force at its finest.

My learning experience with him gave me a uniquely different and fresh perspective on how to effectively apply soft style boxing with internal power, and helped me realize the full potential of the IMA styles as practical fighting methods.

[windwalker]

Roger Haygood,

good friend, kung fu bother...n-mantis...

some of his s-mantis movement


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C23zS0s6nE

[Doc Stier]

https://youtu.be/luKUJ8WhVio

https://youtu.be/BHpfShjcDw4%20l

With all due respect for the teachers shown above, Master Mark most closely displayed the stylistic expression and practical fighting skills of their teacher, 4th Generation GM Lam Sang.

[windwalker]

https://youtu.be/luKUJ8WhVio

https://youtu.be/BHpfShjcDw4%20l

With all due respect for the teachers shown above, Master Mark most closely displayed the stylistic expression and practical fighting skills of their teacher, 4th Generation GM Lam Sang.

Roger knew and practiced with Mark, Shifu if memory serves me



http://www.chinamantis.com/roger-d.-hagood.htm


Quite strong, in his applications, a very deep background in the style...

[Doc Stier]

They didn't part on good terms, for reasons I won't address here, all of which involve substantial loss of face for Mr. Hagood, imo.

Many people studied with Master Mark for varying periods of time, while unsuccessfully attempting to steal his gung-fu, and some even tried to purchase Indoor Disciple and Lineage status with fat hung baos filled with cash, but very few received a full transmission of GM Lam Sang's Jook Lum Pai Style, and none of them ever replicated Sifu Mark's skill level.

[windwalker]

They didn't part on good terms, for reasons I won't address here.
Many people studied with Master Mark for varying periods of time, but very few received a full transmission of GM Lam Sang's Jook Lum Pai Style,
and none of them ever truly replicated Sifu Mark's skill level.

happens..

Stylistically, dynamically not a good fit for my own path, although interesting style...


The wing chun, reminded me of s-mantis as exposed to it through Roger...

[robert]

I think baihe is interesting. Some people train baihe in a pretty relaxed manner. There are a lot of shades of gray between internal and external.