Xing Yi stepping basics

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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:05 am

I guess we could compare apples to apples with his linking form.



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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:09 am

The Choi stuff is weird, but I kind of like it :)

The Pao Quan video you posted is demonstrating what I label in my video as the fault of landing the foot and the hand at the same time. Too much punching air ;)
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:14 am

GrahamB wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:
GrahamB wrote:The stepping is the key to the art.

The way I look at it is like this - the movement, say, "Beng Quan" is a stepping action during which you punch, it's not a punching action during which you step.

I think movement trumps power in the great scheme of things.

Agreed. Although the various basic stepping methods of Song Style Xingyiquan footwork which I practice and teach are different than what is demonstrated in the OP video, the concept is the same.

The offensive strikes of every Element and Animal form are delivered while stepping, not from a stationary position or after the completion of a step.

As such, footwork is a key factor both in generating and issuing integrated whole body power. This type of moving power is definitely something more than a crude, muscular power generated primarily through upper body movement alone.


Nice :)

Agree with your post Doc, although I'd add that there are some arts that don't always step while delivering force and that doesn't make then "crude" - Chen style for instance has a lot of those Fajin expressions where they don't really step anywhere. I think crude, or not, is more to do with the skill level of the person involved.

Of course, but my comment was solely in regards to the power generation of Xingyiquan, as compared to the use of muscular upper body power in other martial arts like karate or taekwondo, not Chen Style TCC. ;)
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:18 am

GrahamB wrote:The Choi stuff is weird, but I kind of like it :)

The Pao Quan video you posted is demonstrating what I label in my video as the fault of landing the foot and the hand at the same time. Too much punching air ;)

The style intentionally starts together and stops together. The presumption is that you're making contact before anything stops. You're moving, hand moving, foot up, make contact, hand still moving, foot goes down, all stop together.
Going to watch your video again
Last edited by origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:19 am

Hey doc, don't diss Karate, man. Mr Miyagi was my first marital arts teacher ;D

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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:23 am

So in your video it appears to me that the only difference between the "wrong" hand and feet land simultaneously and the correct... not that? Is where your foot is landing.

In the incorrect version you step so that you end at the surface of the bag, in the correct version you step so that you land past the center of the bag.

Looking at the floor, on all of the incorrect versions you step to the line on one tile, and on the correct, you step to the line on the other side of that tile.

Am I missing something, or is there some fourth way beyond the foot being first, the hand being first, and them both landing simultaneously?
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:31 am

GrahamB wrote:Hey doc, don't diss Karate, man. Mr Miyagi was my first marital arts teacher ;D

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Hahaha! You beginners luck. ;D
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:39 am

origami_itto wrote:So in your video it appears to me that the only difference between the "wrong" hand and feet land simultaneously and the correct... not that? Is where your foot is landing.

In the incorrect version you step so that you end at the surface of the bag, in the correct version you step so that you land past the center of the bag.

Looking at the floor, on all of the incorrect versions you step to the line on one tile, and on the correct, you step to the line on the other side of that tile.

Am I missing something, or is there some fourth way beyond the foot being first, the hand being first, and them both landing simultaneously?


If your foot and hand make contact and stop on the surface of the target then no good. You want to step through the target, so you're hitting them with your foot still in the air. Too much form against the air with the hand and foot stopping exactly together (and the power being applied only when the foot and hand land) results in that mistake when applied to something with mass.

The best way to understand this is to get hit with it in the body - you can feel the difference. It's hard to understand otherwise. That's what we did - we never used bags. Plus, it toughens you up a bit :)
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:52 am

GrahamB wrote:
origami_itto wrote:So in your video it appears to me that the only difference between the "wrong" hand and feet land simultaneously and the correct... not that? Is where your foot is landing.

In the incorrect version you step so that you end at the surface of the bag, in the correct version you step so that you land past the center of the bag.

Looking at the floor, on all of the incorrect versions you step to the line on one tile, and on the correct, you step to the line on the other side of that tile.

Am I missing something, or is there some fourth way beyond the foot being first, the hand being first, and them both landing simultaneously?


If your foot and hand make contact and stop on the surface of the target then no good. You want to step through the target, so you're hitting them with your foot still in the air. Too much form against the air with the hand and foot stopping exactly together (and the power being applied only when the foot and hand land) results in that mistake when applied to something with mass.

The best way to understand this is to get hit with it in the body - you can feel the difference. It's hard to understand otherwise. That's what we did - we never used bags. Plus, it toughens you up a bit :)


Well, I mean, exactly, right? You don't target the surface, you target past the surface. That's something that's been drilled into my head since the playground days, and it applies regardless of your power generation engine.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:02 am

Yeah right, but a lot of people pay lip service to "thinking" through the opponent when they hit, but I mean, literally and physically, moving through the space they occupied. Displacement. If the bag doesn't swing back and hit you on the nose, you're not doing it. You want to be standing where the bag was.

(depends on the weight of your bag obviously - if you've got a massively heavy bag, relative to the amount of mass you have available, it won't be swinging very far).
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:06 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:08 am

I don't know what other people do. I don't see the sense of stopping at the surface in any way, shape, or form.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:06 am

On piquan, if you look at it from the perspective of where you ideally want your strike to land, the timing of the hand and foot is important, but stepping through is not. Hitting Yintang point is the goal, then the strike continues a downward angle where if the person has a big nose, you would be on the bridge of it. But Yintang point is where the damage is.

For practicing the step and getting the full feel of the stepping, my XYQ teacher would, standing on just his back leg, place his fist against the palm of your hand, which you would be holding tight against the goal target of Beng Quan: the Superior Pubic Remus, and then he would do the strike and stepping, where he could strike all the way through.

You could practice something similar on a lengthier lower hanging bag that’s at the height of an opponent’s pelvis. And stand on one leg, with your fist already touching the bag.


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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:30 pm

D_Glenn wrote:On piquan, if you look at it from the perspective of where you ideally want your strike to land, the timing of the hand and foot is important, but stepping through is not. Hitting Yintang point is the goal, then the strike continues a downward angle where if the person has a big nose, you would be on the bridge of it. But Yintang point is where the damage is.


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Well, with all due respect, that just sounds like nonsense to me. In Xing Yi you don't try and hit special points or worry about particular angles or the size of their nose.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:40 pm

That’s the ideal target. Obviously the situation will dictate what you actually hit. You wouldn’t compromise yourself to hit it. Again OBVIOUSLY

In China you can’t rely on an easily breakable nose, hence the importance of just aiming for the centerline of the opponent’s forehead (Yintang point). In the West, with a lot of “Da Bizi”, breaking a nose would just be the bonus.

Most people just aim for the collarbones. But that’s just plan B for the real XYQ guys.


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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby edededed on Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:40 pm

GrahamB wrote:It's not like Wing Chun, where you can sit on your stationary legs and practice arm movements. (I mean, you could, but I just don't think there's any point).


One of the (Hebei) styles I learned actually does do exactly that ;) - I think that it makes sense to drill fundamental skills separately; if one is already able to keep all the requirements right and everything combined properly in movement, then perhaps there is no need for it, though. (I'm not that talented, though...)
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