Xing Yi stepping basics

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Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:51 am

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CfgUtwNINx ... _copy_link

A new toy to play with in the garden means more content to create for The Tai Chi Notebook! Here's a quick little video on Xing Yi Stepping and how to do it wrong, wrong wrong, then right!
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping

Postby origami_itto on Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:15 am

How heavy is the bag? What's it stuffed with?

I just put 100 lbs of sand in one
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Re: Xing Yi stepping

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:00 am

Sorry, no idea how heavy it is. It’s not sand though. We work in kg - lbs don’t mean much to me.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:02 am

Thought for the day: You can do forms against the air all day, but if you don't actually hit something, or somebody, once in a while you have no chance of getting the power right.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping

Postby origami_itto on Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:28 am

GrahamB wrote:Sorry, no idea how heavy it is. It’s not sand though. We work in kg - lbs don’t mean much to me.

About 45 kg or 16 stone

GrahamB wrote:Thought for the day: You can do forms against the air all day, but if you don't actually hit something, or somebody, once in a while you have no chance of getting the power right.


True facts! But hit different things for different reasons. You can get throwing power without "hitting" but you need something to throw or work against, like a long pole.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:02 pm

This bag is way lighter than that.

Forms are good for refining something once you understand it.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:21 am

I don't know if I necesarrily agree with that.

What my teacher has told me is that my beng looks great until I get in front of the bag. Then it seemed like I kept trying to clobber it so I would get ahead of myself and break form.

I've got to get to where I'm actually hitting the bag with proper form before I can get the use out of the bag which is increasing power.

If you start off with poor form and don't work on that then you're just hitting it badly harder.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:56 am

I guess what I'm getting at is I try to avoid minimizing either one or anything really.
Form is critical, by which I mean the details of a movement. The Xing part of Xing Yi A complete Beng chuan has specific mechanics without which you're not doing beng chuan and are not going to get the power.
You get the mechanics roughed in and drill them till they're smooth, and THEN you can start talking about using it on a heavy bag. It will be misaligned and poorly timed but you've got to have enough of the basic foundation to get to the point where hitting the bag is working on refining THAT expression of power with the specific mechanics that make it Xingyi.
I mean, otherwise, sure you're hitting harder, but are you hitting as hard as you COULD be?

Do you ever practice the elements WITHOUT the footwork? Just upper body?
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:40 am

No I don't. As far as I see it practicing any part of XingYi by just moving the upper body is just anathema to ever getting the movement right. You're missing the point. The stepping is the key to the art. (In my style of Xing Yi at least - other styles vary).

The way I look at it is like this - the movement, say, "Beng Quan" is a stepping action during which you punch, it's not a punching action during which you step. The internal muscle and body usage required to step and punch feels different to the way you use your body if you punch in, say, a sitting position, without moving your legs.

It's not like Wing Chun, where you can sit on your stationary legs and practice arm movements. (I mean, you could, but I just don't think there's any point).

Well aware that other people don't see it like this, but I like it the way I was taught. It makes sense to me.

Also not sure it's worth getting too obsessed with power though - I think movement trumps power in the great scheme of things. That's what XY forms (links) are good for - I should have mentioned that before.
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:18 am

GrahamB wrote:The stepping is the key to the art.

The way I look at it is like this - the movement, say, "Beng Quan" is a stepping action during which you punch, it's not a punching action during which you step.

I think movement trumps power in the great scheme of things.

Agreed. Although the various basic stepping methods of Song Style Xingyiquan footwork which I practice and teach are different than what is demonstrated in the OP video, the concept is the same.

The offensive strikes of every Element and Animal form are delivered while stepping, not from a stationary position or after the completion of a step.

As such, footwork is a key factor both in generating and issuing integrated whole body power. This type of moving power is definitely something more than a crude, muscular power generated primarily through upper body movement alone.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:36 am

Well in what I'm studying, Choi's version, we do practice waist and upper body movements in wuji, and sometimes even practice the footwork without the upper body. I believe the idea is that with less to focus on you can achieve quality in the building blocks faster, while also of course doing tons and tons of whole body repetitions.

Like you want 9 joint harmony, but to get there, maybe you work on getting three joints together, getting that functioning as one, then do another three, and another three. Work on them separately to achieve clarity independently, then integrate them.
Three bows, maybe is how you talk about it in your school.

Point being is that it is what is called additive learning in modern educational theory. You build knowledge a block at a time. Trying to coordinate 9 things at once is more difficult than coordinating 3. But once you've got 3 properly coordinated, they take as much work as 1 did before, so you can do the 9 as if they were 3, and then they become 1. This is neurology, and I've seen the same approach in most every taijiquan teacher I've dealt with when breaking down the more complex movements.

Even after you've got them well coordinated, the isolation practices can help further clarify details in the movement. Polishing the facets of the jewel.

And when the movement is properly coordinated, the power, a tremendous amount of power, manifests naturally.

So the TLDR, the isolation exercises like upper body in stationary wuji and footwork without upper body, as ancillary practices, can help students get to the desired type of power more quickly.

IMHO.
Last edited by origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:18 am

Nah - I think it’s a waste of time in xing yi - :)
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:42 am

Doc Stier wrote:
GrahamB wrote:The stepping is the key to the art.

The way I look at it is like this - the movement, say, "Beng Quan" is a stepping action during which you punch, it's not a punching action during which you step.

I think movement trumps power in the great scheme of things.

Agreed. Although the various basic stepping methods of Song Style Xingyiquan footwork which I practice and teach are different than what is demonstrated in the OP video, the concept is the same.

The offensive strikes of every Element and Animal form are delivered while stepping, not from a stationary position or after the completion of a step.

As such, footwork is a key factor both in generating and issuing integrated whole body power. This type of moving power is definitely something more than a crude, muscular power generated primarily through upper body movement alone.


Nice :)

I think the different style of XY all do things slightly differently. I'm versed in the Hebei style, and that's where my head is most of the time. But there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Agree with your post Doc, although I'd add that there are some arts that don't always step while delivering force and that doesn't make then "crude" - Chen style for instance has a lot of those Fajin expressions where they don't really step anywhere. I think crude, or not, is more to do with the skill level of the person involved.
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:49 am

I'm pretty sure what I'm doing is a little different.
His stuff:

Other stuff I've seen:


All I know is if I do what he says I hit like a ton of bricks so I keep doing what I've been taught. :)
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Re: Xing Yi stepping basics

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:53 am

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