the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

The only question is why

I think the answer is to help spread the art.

I can't speak for him but every time we've talked he said that is his goal, spread the family art.

So, in my perception and interpretation, he's created the fundamental qigong exercises to help develop proper shen fa in a more focused manner, then the simplified form is a mostly bilateral short form that is relatively straight forward, easy to learn and teach and start developing the shen fa.

So they have the family qigong which is some pretty powerful energetic stuff, then the fundamental qi gong for more of the physical aspect, then the simplified form to get them familiar with the building blocks. He's working on certifying instructors on that basic curriculum and developing them into delivering the traditional Yang and Hao forms, fast form, weapons work, etc.

Some folks will never get past the simplified form, but they can still stay engaged and developing and the ones looking for the more intricate and arguably more energetically powerful have material to work on.

But again that's just my interpretation.

wayne hansen wrote:The only question is why

The simple answer is that most simplified short TCC forms have been created by various teachers to provide a movement routine which is easier for larger group classes of students to learn quickly, which doesn't require as much time to practice, and perhaps most importantly, is a proprietary routine unique to the teacher's school. Nothing wrong with any of that, but it appears to be primarily a marketing and branding strategy, imo.

Let’s hope nothing is lost along the way

wayne hansen wrote:Let’s hope nothing is lost along the way

From my perspective, there's a better chance that something will be lost by modifying and abridging the original longer forms of the major TCC styles than any chance of adding something of additional value, especially since that seems to have already been the case prior to the appearance of the shorter competition forms thus far.

Newer forms are not necessarily improved, better forms, so I plan to stick with the older training material composed by notable masters who were apparently more skilled than those who are composing these new short forms.

I think I would be more worried about that if it were a case of keeping a single form to train. At this point I don't believe the forms are the thing but are just skill delivery devices.

Between these, the Yang, the Hao, the fajin and the weapons forms I think there's a fair bit of material.

They all point to the same thing, just different ways of exploring the approach.

That Hao stuff really is interesting.

I was practicing Tungs fast form after reading this thread
I thought surely there is enough in the Tung family curriculum that there is no need to add more
I wonder how many do the full system

Not many. But the folks I know that are serious get into the Hao and fast forms. But I don't know much about what they're doing in new York or Hawaii, etc.

You keep the easier tier of participation and you keep that level of student around so you're there for the folks who want to go further. What is lost if there is nobody to learn anything?

And honestly I didn't think much of what they were doing till I had a chance to do partner work with some of the students.

I think keeping things simple at first and building on those foundations is the best way. So this kind of thing is a good step. Wu style uses 'square form concept' for example. And pretty much most tai chi styles/systems have shortened and or simplified forms now.

In the past it most often worked that way or similar. Now instead of one shape, one solo exercise at a time, we have one form (long or short) at a time. That's probably sub optimal. Most mainstream people today will want a form of some sort to start with rather than the one shape/stance/ exercise for x months model. It's all good, it's just finding the right balance and fit.

Hard to compare the square Wu form to these simplified forms
The square form is actually more complex in number of moves and requirements than the circular form but not the circular continuous form
It would be interesting to know if all branches of the Dong family are teaching these new forms
I hate to say it due to my respect for the Dong Family but I think it is about market share and commercial requirements
I would be glad to be proved wrong

If all you have is 30 years of Kung Fu experience, albeit authentic... And no other learned skills, crafts or competence in other areas... There's no evil in filling your rice bowl with what you can do best, even if it's just repacking stuff you taught some time ago.

Long forms seem to have been developed expressly for public consumption. My experience of inner door teaching is that short specific jibengong exercises are the core of the curriculum and forms are secondary. YMMV of course. As for simplified forms, student engagement in the beginning is so light and superficial that any tool to help motivate is OK with me.

As for ‘losing’ information from one generation to the next, deep engagement is required, if that’s missing, long and short format training are equally useless.

Any forms added to the system is a lengthening
Sure make a buck i have no problem with that
I was just wondering why as I first asked
I would love to see their basic training but doubt that the forms are just a distraction
Every inch of training in our system has purpose nothing is just there as filler
Saying that you can teach it all with a very condensed curriculum